Bigotry, the Bible and the Lessons of Indiana

[cbayer]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/05/opinion/sunday/frank-bruni-same-sex-sinners.html?_r=0

APRIL 3, 2015

Frank Bruni


Ben Wiseman

THE drama in Indiana last week and the larger debate over so-called “religious freedom” laws in other states portray homosexuality and devout Christianity as forces in fierce collision.

They’re not — at least not in several prominent denominations, which have come to a new understanding of what the Bible does and doesn’t decree, of what people can and cannot divine in regard to God’s will.

And homosexuality and Christianity don’t have to be in conflict in any church anywhere.

That many Christians regard them as incompatible is understandable, an example not so much of hatred’s pull as of tradition’s sway. Beliefs ossified over centuries aren’t easily shaken.

more at link

[phil89]

1. Oh, a "new understanding"?

So god wasn't too good at getting his intentions across before I suppose. Doesn't seem like it would have been to difficult to address when he was inspiring men to write his word. Unbelievable.

[cbayer]

2. Perhaps god, if one exists, is intentionally vague. At any rate, it's good news

that some denominations are coming to a new understanding. I fully support them.

[phil89]

4. Then it is a cruel god

For allowing room for such mistakes to be made... If only there were evidence for a god and some way to examine it we might know.

[cbayer]

5. Really? Would you call a parent who allowed their children to make mistakes cruel?

There is no evidence for god and no way to examine the questions, so everything is open to speculation. I am highly skeptical, but never completely dismiss the possibility.

[Mariana]

15. If parents stand by while their children make mistakes

that will harm themselves, or other people, then those parents are indeed cruel.

[cbayer]

16. Disagree. It is critical to let children make mistakes.

That is how they learn to think critically. There is nothing cruel about it.

This whole "god is cruel because he doesn't control everything" meme is silly.

[Mariana]

17. It's critical to let children harm themselves or others

so they can learn to think critically?

How far does that go, exactly? How much harm should children be permitted to cause before a parent steps in and puts a stop to it?

[cbayer]

18. There are degrees of harm and learning lessons because some things have

unpleasant consequences is not a bad thing.

It is up to a parent to decide where to draw the line and certainly causing serious or permanent injury should be on the other side of that line.

Where do you draw the line? Or, assuming you have children, do you always step in before any harm is done at all? If so, at what age do you stop doing that?

[trotsky]

6. Correct.

Just like the Mormons came to a "new understanding" that darker-skinned races weren't inferior. Convenient, eh?

[AtheistCrusader]

3. Not that many?

"People thought contraception was sinful when it began to be developed, and now very few Protestants and not that many Catholics would say that.” "

Not that many Catholics? BULLSHIT

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/05/23/489006/82-percent-of-catholics-birth-control/

15 percent of catholics is 10.5 MILLION PEOPLE. That's not 'not that many' to me. On the national scale, 'not that many' is, to me, more like a number that fits inside a sports stadium.
And those 10.5 million people are echoing word for word what the Pope/RCC teaches on this issue.
Same church that sued to block the contraception mandate of the ACA.

[okasha]

7. And 82% is an overwhelming majority.

It takes some real squinting to see 82% as less significant than the 15% of holdouts.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. Except the ruling power of the chuch is in the 'holdout' section.

Giving it lobbying power in line with the 15%'s view.

[okasha]

9. When 82% of an organization decline to be "ruled,"

the power of its managers is seriously in question.

[AtheistCrusader]

10. Bull. Shit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/31/supreme-court-birth-control-catholic_n_4526315.html

[trotsky]

12. Perfect response. n/t

[okasha]

19. You and the heirarchy seem to be on the same page.

The number of reproductive-age Catholics using birth control is up.

The number of divorced and remarried Catholics is up.

The number of unmarried Catholic couples living together and having children is up.

Management 101: Never give an order you can't enforce.

Catholic women who vote outnumber the bishops. If they have to jump through hoops to obtain contraceptives, they will remember the politicians who forced them to do it.

[AtheistCrusader]

21. That's nice, meanwhile, the RCC won at the supreme court level.

Keep ignoring that, and the damage it's done.

[okasha]

22. Nobody's ignoring it.

Least of all the women affected.

[Act_of_Reparation]

11. If we lived in a majoritarian world, then maybe.

But we don't. Most live under authoritarian regimes. Those of us that don't are constituents of representative democracies, which are generally insulated against majoritarianism.

While this is handy insofar as it keeps the majority from running roughshod over the rights and interests of minorities, it sometimes gives minorities influence disproportionate to their numbers.

Given that church leaders are more influential than parishioners themselves, and that within the church itself the zealous 15% commands greater influence than the right-thinking 82%, there's little solace to be taken from numbers. However insignificant they may look next to the majority, these 15% are a real problem.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. Authoritarian regime is a pretty apt description of the RCC. Imagine if the WBC boasted 10.5m member

s.

That would be AWFUL.

[Act_of_Reparation]

14. Here's some perspective:

We don't even need to get as crazy as the WBC.

There are only about 15 million LDS-affiliated Mormons in the world. Not all of them are hardliners. But who is really going to argue that we don't need to worry about the political capital these guys have at their disposal?

They are proof-positive a unified and motivated minority can, in a representative democracy, affect political change completely disproportionate to its membership.

[okasha]

20. Church leaders are more influential than parishioners

because the politicians they influence grant them more credence than they grant to the people in the pews. One managerial hand washes the other. That's a mistake.