Apparently, not all atheists are dismissive about praying

[Starboard Tack]

In fact some pray on a regular basis. I have also been known to pray, especially in situations where I had absolutely no control of what was happening. I don't pray to a deity, or supreme being, but to all that I hold dear in this universe. We all have our own way of seeking support and solace in times of helplessness. Prayer is a very personal thing and for many, it is a very powerful means of dealing with life's trials and tribulations.

Some nonbelievers still find solace in prayer
New research on atheists by the Pew Research Center shows a range of beliefs. Eighteen percent of atheists say religion has some importance in their life, 26 percent say they are spiritual or religious and 14 percent believe in “God or a universal spirit.” Of all Americans who say they don’t believe in God — not all call themselves “atheists” — 12 percent say they pray.

Responding to this diversity, secular chaplains are popping up at universities such as Rutgers, American and Carnegie Mellon, and parents are creating atheist Sunday schools, igniting debate among atheists over how far they should go in emulating their theist kin.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/non-believers-say-their-prayers-to-no-one/2013/06/24/b7c8cf50-d915-11e2-a9f2-42ee3912ae0e_story.html

Here are a couple more links from Psychology Today on the subject
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pray-me/201309/do-atheists-pray
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pray-me/201401/nones-prayer

[msongs]

1. prayer is just talking to one's self. its imposition on others is the problem nt

[Starboard Tack]

5. We should never impose anything on others, especially our personal spiritual beliefs

Prayer has a different meaning for every individual. Talking to oneself can be very healthy, especially if one is prepared to listen.
For me, prayer is mostly about intense concentration, a form of meditation. It can be very therapeutic.

Bottom line, it is not something to be mocked or be judged for.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. "We should never impose anything on others" Circular reference error.

[Starboard Tack]

131. ?

[AtheistCrusader]

135. Really? You don' kniw what that is?

Here.

[840high]

127. +1

[Warren Stupidity]

2. just so you know, an atheist who believes in "god or a universal spirit" is not an atheist.

instead this is a person who is either pretending to be an atheist for tactical reasons, or a person who has no idea what "atheist" means.

[Starboard Tack]

3. Depends how you define God.

Many atheists see God as the natural universe, not as a creator or biblical god.
I don't use the word in terms of my beliefs, though I am a spiritual atheist, as are many of us.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. no really atheism is the lack of belief in gods

that is not qualified by "how you define gods" unless you are being intellectually dishonest and defining god to be something other than the common understanding of the word. You are misusing atheist to replace pantheist. Pantheism and atheism are different things.

pan·the·ism
ˈpanTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
1.
a doctrine that identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.
2.
rare
worship that admits or tolerates all gods.

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/Submit
noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
synonyms: nonbelief, disbelief, unbelief, irreligion, skepticism, doubt, agnosticism; nihilism
"atheism was not freely discussed in his community"

[Starboard Tack]

16. Did you read the articles I linked to?

Last edited Thu Apr 30, 2015, 12:16 PM - Edit history (1)

34% of Atheists identify as spiritual
7% as religious (go figure)

17% of Atheists and Agnostics pray at least once a month
6% pray daily.

Maybe you should run a poll in your group and see how representative it is of A&A

[edhopper]

28. They aren't atheists

a poll that showed 25% of all vegans eat meat once a week would not be a poll of only vegans, no matter how they think of themselves.

[Starboard Tack]

30. Of course not

Better alert Pew

[edhopper]

39. it's obvious

That a percentage of self identified atheist in the survey don'tunderstand the term.
My point stands.

[Starboard Tack]

54. What term? Atheist or prayer?

I understand both and sometimes I pray. I think a lot of us pray. YMMV
Praying to me means hoping, wishing, sending positive vibes, begging the dice, you name it. No gods involved, but if I believed in gods, then they would be included. Each to his own.

[edhopper]

55. ones who say

They believe in a God or Universal spirit.

[Starboard Tack]

65. Do you find no difference between the two?

Universal spirit necessitates no deity. A significant number of atheists and agnostics embrace the concept of a "universal spirit", and many do not.

[edhopper]

66. If they mean

a supernatural spirit, then they aren't atheists.

But we would have to understand what they mean.

Pew couldn't even find out what they mean by atheist.

It was self-identifying, therefor problematic.

But you've had this discussion with 5 other people in this thread and still don't seem to grasp it.

[Starboard Tack]

67. Some of us do not consider our spiritual side as being supernatural

Last edited Thu Apr 30, 2015, 11:53 AM - Edit history (1)

Instead, we find spirituality to be perfectly natural. It has absolutely nothing more to do with any deity or religion than does the weather.

[edhopper]

70. What do you mean by

"spiritulas"? Is this just an emotional component of Humans, or an essence of the Universe?

[Starboard Tack]

71. The spirits must have taken over my keyboard. LOL

Now corrected.
I don't know if our sense of spirituality is merely an emotional component of humans, or an essence of the universe. Maybe both. Maybe they are one and the same, doesn't really matter.
For me personally, it is one of the dimensions in which we exist. Whether it extends beyond what we call our earthly life-span, I have no idea, but if it does, then I doubt it has anything to do with any religious notion of heaven or hell. I'm open on the idea of reincarnation.

[gcomeau]

13. It most certainly does not.

Atheism is not believing in gods. That's what atheism means, in it's entirety.

If you believe in ANY DEFINITION of a "god" you are not an atheist. That simple.

[Starboard Tack]

18. I agree.

I do not believe in supernatural entities. However, there are some who consider the universe and all in it to be God, including themselves. In those cases, the word is misused imo and we are into semantics.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. There are people that make a lot of money helping with that.

'be God, including themselves'

[AtheistCrusader]

25. I, too, like to make up meanings for words.

If you consider the universe itself to be god, WITHOUT a supernatural quality/intelligence/consciousness, it's just called 'the universe'.

[skepticscott]

4. Just so everyone knows where this poster is coming from

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1225&pid=595

I'll let his words speak for themselves. As well as the words of those who support and celebrate calling other DUers "vermin"

[Starboard Tack]

6. Thank you for linking that SS.

As you can see, there is no reference in that post to DUers. I was responding to the OP which referred to some, again no mention of DUers, who were mocking prayer. I had no idea who these mockers were, but I did feel his hurt.

Which particular DUers did you think this was referencing?

[skepticscott]

8. The same ones you knew he was referring to, Tack

Since he spends almost all of his time here.

No idea?

Being disingenuous doesn't make you look any better.

[Starboard Tack]

12. I have no idea what you mean

Link please

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. You had already been reprimanding a DUer as 'not the prayer police'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218194493#post34

And you had already posted in the thread whose OP was a call out (a strawman of "Some people seem to think making fun of prayer is the best thing for helping the victims&quot as well: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=194846

Your "who, me?" pretence is pathetic.

[Starboard Tack]

33. And what does any of that have to do with a post in Interfaith?

You all seem so eager to shamelessly own this.
Thanks for serving on the jury btw. I wonder which one you were...I'm betting #7

[skepticscott]

34. Link to what? You being disingenuous?

Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=195190

As for the rest, I'm perfectly willing to let any intelligent person reading this judge for themselves how credible you are, given your posting behavior in the threads that muriel was kind enough to link to (saving me the trouble). But hey, if you've got droves of people convinced that you didn't for a moment have DUers in mind when you referred to certain folk as vermin, good for you!

You have a nice day with your righteous anger, Tack...hope it doesn't sink you!

[Starboard Tack]

7. You forgot this link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/123040729#post9

[skepticscott]

9. I'm sure it makes you proud

to have gotten calling other DUers "vermin" past a jury.

Did you have room to do a little victory dance?

[Starboard Tack]

11. Except I didn't, but if the shoe fits...

why would you identify with this? Did you insult Justin? He never mentioned DU.

[beam me up scottie]

38. How about these links showing a few of your other insults?:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=48496
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=123943
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=59016
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=124676
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=49182
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=119157

With your history you really shouldn't be lecturing anyone else about how to behave on DU.

[skepticscott]

46. Always good to let people know

what kind of person is pretending to be a paragon of respect and civility.

[beam me up scottie]

47. Every time I see ST lecture others on how to behave I'm reminded of Westboro Baptists

trying to warn the US about how our support of lgbt rights are causing God to punish us for OUR immoral actions.

Because those hypocrites are holier than us too.

[Starboard Tack]

57. So kind of you SS, but in all humility, I must decline such an honor

I am as big a hypocrite as anyone else out there and hardly a paragon of virtue.
I understand that the very thought of an atheist praying must send chills up your spine, but it happens.
Of course, we all know they can't be true "atheists", or maybe not quite atheist enough for the purest of the pure.
Fact is, we who indulge occasionally in the unmentionable practice of prayer, are still good atheists, in the "purest" sense of the word. Hate to disappoint you, but yes we do pray every now and then. Some of us even identify as spiritual too, Dawkins forbid, but yes it is so. Watcha gonna do?
You see Scottie boy (that's an endearing alternative for Dude btw), not all of us feel the hatred and hostility toward religion and believers that the theophobes like to push.

[AtheistCrusader]

84. Thanks for perpetuating the bigoted foundation of the 'no atheists in foxholes' meme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes

That meme is a dismissal/attack on atheists as being angry deniers rather than unbelievers. Being in a state of rebellion, rather than dismissing an unfounded claim. If you pray, you're not an atheist. You're something else. There is no basis for having a 'spirit' or 'soul' or being 'spiritual' without the supernatural/theistic overtone. It would be nice that, as long as you insist on praying, that you would please identify as something other than atheist, so as not to further validate and fuel a vicious and hateful smear against atheists from theistic quarters. I don't care what, just something else.

When you say 'I'm an atheist and I pray', you're validating the basis of their attack upon people like me.


Not the first basis for 3rd party/right wing bigotry you've perpetuated around here, either.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218122885#post176

When you insist people should be able to marry dogs, you are validating the right wing slippery slope argument against same sex marriage, and furthering a nauseating bigoted meme that actually associates pathologies or crimes like bestiality with same-sex pair bonds. Dogs cannot consent to marriage, (a legal contract) let alone sex, so when you bring it up over and over, all you are doing is handing the anti-gay right wing a weapon, and validating the basis for their bigoted claims. You have no business bringing the two issues up in the same breath.

Someone you know might suspect a person like that of being a 'poe'.

[Curmudgeoness]

86. Who do you pray to?

If you really are an atheist, this means that you do not believe in any gods. Without gods, there is no place for your prayers to go. What possible purpose would those prayers accomplish?

I am baffled.

[Starboard Tack]

88. Excellent question.

I pray to all that is good and loving in this universe. It is not directional prayer to a supreme being, but more in the form of intense thought and hope for a positive outcome. I have no idea if it works in the sense of affecting any outcome, but I engage in this form of "prayer" as I call it, when I have no other way of controlling a situation. It is inward in nature, rather than seeking help from some outside source. No kneeling or supplication involved. Just a search into the depth of my soul.

What does any kind of hope accomplish? It helps me survive during times of helplessness and despair. We are strange creatures indeed.

Hope this helps. I really don't care whether others think I am a "true atheist" or not. To me, being an atheist means not believing in deities, which I don't. I do believe in the soul, though. So, go figure.

[Curmudgeoness]

93. Wow, I was following the logic all the way to the end.

You basically were explaining conscious hopes that things will change or work out when faced with a bad experience. I get that.

But then you said you believe in the soul. Huh? That leads to another question---did you do that on purpose? What would you define as the "soul"? The only time that I hear the term used, it is related to religion. And is there any other way to define it? Are you saying that you believe that there is something that lives after our body dies? Where does it live?

[Starboard Tack]

95. I have no idea if the soul lives on

Last edited Thu Apr 30, 2015, 10:44 PM - Edit history (1)

I am open on that. My philosophy of the soul is more akin to the Buddhist concept. It has nothing to do with an afterlife like heaven and hell. The soul to me is one's very essence, something separate from our physicality. I'm surprised you are surprised. I brought the subject up a few years ago in A&A, didn't go down well, as you can imagine. I think some there consider me a heretic. Ah well, we can't all be expected to think the same. But I have no issue with those who think we have no soul. It is a very personal thing. There are all kinds of atheists. Only thing we have in common is a lack of belief in deities.

[Starboard Tack]

56. Again, thank you BMUS for your support and understanding. Bless you!

I love all my disciples, especially you. But remember, I never lecture. As a good atheist, I am only here to help guide you, never to claim any truth or true path. That is for our fearless leaders.

[gcomeau]

14. There is a profound difference...

...between purely meditative activities that Ops like this decide to call praying and praying in the sense of casting mental wishes at a magic deity like they're a genie that popped out of the lamp you found in your attic, with the expectation that that entity may respond by effecting some real world change with its magic powers.


Please try not to equate the two. It's dishonest.

[Starboard Tack]

23. Again I agree that prayer can be defined in many ways.

I am equating nothing.

Please read the Pew study page 52
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Unaffiliated/NonesOnTheRise-full.pdf

There are many forms of prayer. It is a very personal activity and I do not judge those who practice it. It is none of my business how they pray or to whom or what they pray or for what reason.

[beam me up scottie]

40. Just like you didn't equate same sex marriage to wanting to marry your dog, hamster or mother?

You equated same sex marriage with bestiality and incest in your haste to defend the RCC against its critics in here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=123723

Starboard Tack (10,698 posts)
112. And this has what to do with the RCC?

Why would any couple want to marry in a church that doesn't accept them? Makes no sense.
You really look for extreme situations to provide fodder for your hatred of religion. How about if I wanted to marry my bicycle, or my hamster and some church opposed performing the ceremony, would you be there, fighting for my rights?

I'm sorry, but religious rights and gay rights are not the same thing. I support both. Seems like you only support one. I know many gay couples, some who married in church and some at town hall and some couldn't care less about the institution of marriage.

I think your views are self centered. You want the world to adapt to your values, like the vegan who wants everyone to quit eating meat. What a boring world that would be.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=124676

Starboard Tack This message was hidden by Jury decision. Hide

176. Really? And how exactly did I do that?

You seem to confuse marriage and sexuality. The first is about a ceremonial binding of two entities. The second is about sex.
Who are you to tell me I cannot marry my dog, or my brother, or my mother, or my fucking bicycle, if I so wish. You don't get to decide these things. Sorry to disappoint you.

A Jury voted 5-2 to hide this post on Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:12 PM. Reason: This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=124679

Starboard Tack (10,698 posts)
177. No, I am not equating it with anything.

We should all have the right to marry whomever or whatever, provided it is consensual and conducted of sound mind.
Do you have a problem with sisters marrying each other? I don't. How about other family members? Do you draw lines and, if so, why?

My point, as I'm sure you are already aware, was about seeking approval from the RCC or any other church, to get married. That approval comes from within one's own conscience. Official approval comes from the state. Fuck the church and fuck those who want to paint me as an enemy of equal rights. Fuck the bigots and bullies and nasty hate mongering anti-theists. Fuck all fascists.


Happy Easter!

[Starboard Tack]

53. Absolutely! Thanks BMUS

I always love it when my supporters join in.

[HassleCat]

15. Praying for This or That

Much of the discussion regarding prayer has been stimulated by all the calls to pray for the victims of the Nepal earthquake. Many people point out, correctly, that prayer does nothing, has no effect, is useless, etc. That's true if we just look at prayer as a cause and nothing as its direct effect. What prayer really does is (1) stimulate some people to volunteer time or give money to relief organizations, and (2) allow some people to tell themselves they don't have to give time or money because they're ding their part by praying. I think, I hope that asking religious people to pray for the earthquake victims motivates them to cough up some money for relief efforts. Yes, some of the money is given to the TV evangelists, who are notoriously bad about using the money to provide any actual relief, but some will end up with organizations that really do feed people, build housing, provide medical aid, etc.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. We asked one of the promoters of prayer here what he thought his prayers would do

and he thought they would help *him* get through this event. When pressed he realized how awful that sounded so he added "and others" to that. What he did not say was that his prayers would motivate him to provide actual assistance.

[Starboard Tack]

24. Thank you for your opinion

I think prayer has a different meaning for each individual. I don't judge the motives of others regarding prayer and I have no idea whether it has any effect. I don't know where those who claim it does or doesn't have an effect get their information.

[hrmjustin]

21. Most of the atheists I know irl and on DU are live and let live.

[Starboard Tack]

26. I have the same experience

Though, I see from some replies that some here have special knowledge about the effectiveness of prayer. Can't imagine what scientific experiment they used to collect the non existent data to support that. Maybe they're going on faith.

Thanks for tolerating me Justin

[hrmjustin]

27. Well even believers like myself question how much it works.

Only natural but some just like mock and deride people of faith.

[AtheistCrusader]

31. And some like to dismiss concerns about how the intended recipients receive notification of

such prayer.

Especially broad-brush unsolicited prayer by, say, victims of a natural disaster in a region that is very culturally different from the US. (For instance, 10% of that region is not of the sort of religion that acknowledges or understands a deity/god to pray to, nor believes in intercessory prayer.)

[hrmjustin]

32. What is your solution?

[AtheistCrusader]

35. Pray, without rubbing it in people's faces that you are praying.

It's really that simple.

This is not even a new concern, this is actually something in the bible, if you're of NT Abrahamic-faith. Matthew 6:6.

You can pray without telling the world that you are praying, yes?
If you insist on telling the world that you are praying, is it unreasonable to you for the world to inform you what it thinks of prayer?

[hrmjustin]

36. So are you saying we shoukd not ask for prayers here on DU for victims

Of tragedy or not ask for prayers at all?

[AtheistCrusader]

37. What? That's not what I said at all.

That's actually a conversation no one has asked/analyzed yet.

Asking for self, hey there you go. Self knows if self finds it offensive. Done deal.
Asking for others, not a question examined yet. Do you know if the others you are asking for appreciate/desire/accept such thoughts?

So far, all I've talked about is posting the 'I'm praying for you' thing unsolicited. Not the request.
Soliciting on behalf of a third party wherein you have no idea if the third party is offended by it, seems problematic. Why not just pray for people if you want to, and keep it to yourself?

[hrmjustin]

43. Well I put stuff in the pray group so it is appropriate there.

If it bothers youvor others then use the trash or ignore function.

[cleanhippie]

48. " If it bothers youvor others then use the trash or ignore function."

You really need to heed your own advice.

But that wouldn't be hypocritical, so...

[hrmjustin]

49. Oh I do use the trash function.

[AtheistCrusader]

50. so then, your objection is not related to the GD thread?

I didn't say anything about the prayer group prayer. Only time I mentioned prayer group was in regards to meta. I've been talking about religion and gd.

[hrmjustin]

51. I will say I was surprised that thread was not locked but I understand why it wasn't.

But you do have a point that religion does not belong in gd.

[AtheistCrusader]

90. Yeah, if the prayer thing stays in the prayer group, we'd get along just fine.

As long as the prayer group doesn't allow meta, if meta discussions or claims about prayer could be in the Religion group, we'll get along fine.

When it's in GD, it feels like it's being shoved in people's face. When meta is being posted in Prayer Circle, it feels like hiding it behind a wall that only allows friendly opinions. Both rankle certain audiences.

We don't have to actually fight. Most of our acerbic disagreements aren't actually about religion, but rather they are procedural or territorial.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Or, maybe some are ignorant of peer reviewed double-blind studies on the efficacy of prayer.

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

Some patients were told they may or may not receive intercessory prayer: complications occurred in 52 percent of those who received prayer (Group 1) versus 51 percent of those who did not receive prayer (Group 2). Complications occurred in 59 percent of patients who were told they would receive prayer (Group 3) versus 52 percent, who also received prayer, but were uncertain of receiving it (Group 1). Major complications and thirty-day mortality were similar across the three groups.

[okasha]

44. A single study, which has not been replicated.

Not enough information to produce a sound conclusion.

[truebrit71]

59. Wait, what?

"Show me proof"

"Okay, sure thing, here you go .."

"Damn. No, show me MORE proof"....

[okasha]

60. Cold fusion.

Science requires results to be replicable.

[truebrit71]

61. Peer-reviewed, double blind...

And prayer ain't science baby....

[okasha]

62. iNeither is a study with results that can't be replicated.

I like science.

[edhopper]

64. Why can't they be replicated

do you have studies where the results weren't replicated?

"Can't be" is a bold statement. It's impossible to replicate? Why?

[okasha]

68. I was speaking in general terms about how science works.

As far as I know, the Templeton test results have not been replicated, and their conclusions contradict those of previous studies. Using any of these studies to draw a hard and fast "proven" conclusion is at best premature.

[edhopper]

69. That's different than

than "can't be replicated"
And comparing it to Fleishmann/Pons cold fusion is a red herring, which was actually proven not to work in replicated tests.

[okasha]

72. The point of the cold fusion comparison

was to point out that its results were not replicated. Science requires replicated results to draw conclusions.

So far, the Templeton results have not been replicated.

[edhopper]

73. How many studies

have tried. I can't find any.

Disproven experiments like cold fusion, are far different than studies that haven't been redone.

I understand your point about not using studies that haven't been redone yet, but find your analogy off the mark.


You are comparing a very well done experiment that has not been found to have problems, just not redone, with an experiment that had problems from the beginning.

[Act_of_Reparation]

85. Oh come on, now.

There's a good reason medical researchers aren't jumping out of their chairs to study intercessory prayer:

It's fucking pointless.

You're talking about spending money -- a lot of money -- to conduct research that won't be of any benefit to anyone because 1) those patients who don't believe in intercessory prayer will continue not believing in intercessory prayer, 2) those patients who believe in intercessory prayer will continue to believe in intercessory prayer no matter the evidence to the contrary, and 3) most medical researchers dismiss IP unilaterally.

Studying IP won't win you an attaboy from the chair of your department, much less an R01 or a Nature cover. No one is going to put a clinical drug or gene therapy trial on hold to chase that rabbit down its hole. People simply have better shit to do.



Not to mention there is nothing a study would accomplish that criticisms of pro-intercessory prayer studies haven't shown already.

[Warren Stupidity]

87. the only way this study got done was because the templeton foundation funded it

and since they were looking for the opposite results, they aren't going to fund a follow up.

[okasha]

94. I wasn't proposing anyone spend mofe gi.e or money

on further studies of this question--or on cold fusion, either. Just pointing out that proper exercise of the scientific method requires independent confirmation via replicable experimental results before claiming an hypothesis is proven.

[AtheistCrusader]

75. "their conclusions contradict those of previous studies" No, they don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer#cite_note-KrucoffCraterGallup-26

There's no contradiction. The only study that contradicted anything, was proven a horrible fraud.
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer#The_IVF-ET_prayer_scandal )

[AtheistCrusader]

74. Except the Templeton study I referenced isn't the only one that showed null or not statistically sig

nificant delta between control and intercessory prayer.

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)66910-3/abstract

[beam me up scottie]

41. Yep. Your thread "Question for atheists" is a good example of our mutual respect.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218193143

Again, a very nice gesture, hrmjustin.

[hrmjustin]

45. Thank you.

[applegrove]

42. I pray on rare ocassions. Especially if the person in need is religious.

Last edited Wed Apr 29, 2015, 07:53 PM - Edit history (1)

Otherwise I send out vibes.

[Starboard Tack]

52. Me too.

I've always equated sending out positive vibes with praying. It's all good and I see no harm in it. When you're waiting outside the OR for a loved one there's not much else one can do.

[Yorktown]

63. The functions fulfilled by religions are being externalized

As atheism grows in the developed world, the social services that used to be provided by curches are being secularized.

Part of prayer was to take time to think and focus on what one wanted.

Something neurosciences will help humanity to harness better presumably this century.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

76. Shocking! Atheists are not a monolith? Who could hav guessed. nt

[Starboard Tack]

78. Indeed we are not

Many of us explore our spiritual side, while some deny its very existence.

[muriel_volestrangler]

96. And some of you call other atheists 'vermin'

I guess those using such terms have given up looking for their 'spiritual side', and have just settled on being insulting instead.

[Starboard Tack]

97. You must be referring to this....

The only place I see atheists being described as "vermin" is here http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1230&pid=40729
and here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1230&pid=40858
Maybe you should be scolding those who self-identify.

Obviously, being atheist or religious does not preclude us from being either spiritual or spiteful.
The vast majority of my friends are atheists. I consider none of them vermin. A few are spiritual, none are hateful or nasty individuals. YMMV

Hey! Happy May Day btw.

[mr blur]

98. Don't you think it's about time you stopped pretending to be rational and non-religious?

You're not fooling anyone, any of you. Yes, it's very amusing watching you both flailing around trying to pretend you're too smart to believe all that drivel but that you really respect anyone who does and just want to protect them from the nasty anti-theists using your combined mighty intellects and insights. Nobody buys it. Or that you're smart, either. I mean, is there no beginning to your talents?

You know there's a certain kind of person who will sigh dramatically and wish out loud that they could be more mediocre, just like the little people? Well, congratulations, you made it.

It's rather sad, really.

[Starboard Tack]

100. Happy May Day to you too!

[truebrit71]

99. The irony that your first link is directly related to YOUR post...

...where you quite specifically call atheists vermin is almost too much to behold.

That's a very special kind of bullshit. And you have it by the yacht-load.

I honestly don't mind it when people use ugly names and slurs, it says more about their character than it does about the person being maligned, but at least have the balls to own it when you get called on the carpet. At least have the intellectual honesty to stand by your slurs, rather than try and wriggle your way out of it like some recalcitrant child caught with your hands in the cookie jar.

[Starboard Tack]

101. Except I did not "specifically call atheists vermin"

Or anyone, for that matter.

"I honestly don't mind it when people use ugly names and slurs"
That, my friend, was pretty bloody obvious.

What exactly would you like me to own? I don't slur individuals, especially other DUers, YMMV

Happy May Day to you too!

[beam me up scottie]

103. Links to your hidden posts slurring other DUers:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=48496
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=123943
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=59016
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=124676
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=49182
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=119157
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=152904

[Starboard Tack]

108. Thank you BMUS

You are one of my favorite followers. Keep up the good work.

[truebrit71]

104. Then to whom were you referring in that post?

Last edited Fri May 1, 2015, 07:52 PM - Edit history (1)

Who are the vermin that will eventually consume each other?

[Starboard Tack]

110. Whoever Justin was being bullied by. Who do you think?

I don't differentiate between individual varmints. Who do you think he was referring to? I was just providing solace to a fellow DUer whom I like and respect, who takes a lot of abuse, and I saw his OP. I used an analogy, which I thought appropriate in this context. Obviously, I hit a nerve with a handful Of members. I guess it would be interesting to do a search and see if those who are so upset are also those who constantly bait Justin. For praying, of all things. But I'll leave that to those who enjoy digging up shit.
Meanwhile, how's your May Day going? Always one of my favorite days.

[beam me up scottie]

112. So you weren't being truthful when you said you didn't "specifically call atheists vermin".

First you denied it:

Starboard Tack (10,726 posts)

101. Except I did not "specifically call atheists vermin"

Or anyone, for that matter.

"I honestly don't mind it when people use ugly names and slurs"
That, my friend, was pretty bloody obvious.

What exactly would you like me to own? I don't slur individuals, especially other DUers, YMMV

Happy May Day to you too!

And now you're admitting you called "Whoever Justin was being bullied by" vermin.

Starboard Tack (10,726 posts)

110. Whoever Justin was being bullied by. Who do you think?

I don't differentiate between individual varmints. Who do you think he was referring to? I was just providing solace to a fellow DUer whom I like and respect, who takes a lot of abuse, and I saw his OP. I used an analogy, which I thought appropriate in this context. Obviously, I hit a nerve with a handful Of members. I guess it would be interesting to do a search and see if those who are so upset are also those who constantly bait Justin. For praying, of all things. But I'll leave that to those who enjoy digging up shit.
Meanwhile, how's your May Day going? Always one of my favorite days.

It appears that when it comes to "digging up shit", one doesn't have to dig very far to find it in your posts.

And speaking of "individual varmints"; you can keep digging all night long, but you're not weaseling out of this one ST.

[Starboard Tack]

113. Thanks again. Now, a question or two for you.

Who do you think the vermin are? Do you think Justin is a bully? What do think about prayer? Are atheists allowed to pray? Are we not true atheists when we pray? Am I the only hypocrite in this thread?
This is so much fun, isn't it?

[AtheistCrusader]

115. You have yet to explain what an atheist prays to.

There are religions that do not have a central deity, or a petitionable intercessory thing/force/being/god, and as such, they don't pray.

So why would an atheist pray? What would an atheist pray to? 'the universe'? What the fuck does that even mean, praying to 'the universe'? For instance, most sects of Buddhist don't pray to an external agency, when they pray, they are invoking their own desires, from within. Not a concept you've yet expressed. You keep citing external agencies, like 'the universe'.

Really don't know what you mean. Do you imagine the universe can hear you, or understand you, or cares? What a waste of time.

[Starboard Tack]

117. I already explained to you how I interpret praying as an atheist

My prayers are primarily directed inwards, not externally toward another person or deity. I do not and cannot speak for other atheists who pray. Why don't you ask them. There are several websites and message boards out there where this is discussed.

[AtheistCrusader]

119. Inwards... to the universe. ok?

Have you investigated Buddhism? Your 'inwards' sounds like what most sects of Buddhist does.
Maybe find some fellow travelers.

[Starboard Tack]

122. Bravo! Exactly, like Buddhists do.

Bhuddism and atheism are quite compatible. Many atheists and buddhists are fellow travelers.

[AtheistCrusader]

123. Buddhists dont pray to an external agency for the benefit of others.

So you really haven't made your point that atheists pray and that the intercessory pleas for the earthquake survivors aren't stupid and or offensive.

Your point downthread that atheists pray too doesn't make any fucking sense in that context.

[Starboard Tack]

124. I never talked about context or intercessory pleas.

There are many ways to pray. Each to his own.

[AtheistCrusader]

125. That doesn't prove that intercessory prayer isn't stupid, or obnoxious, or insulting, or any other

Number of conditions. You keep pretending to be representative of an atheist that prays, but we've now established you're talking about something entirely different from the concept of prayer that caused the brouhaha, and now you're hedging as if all prayer is equal, and valid, just because your form of 'prayer' is pleasing to you. Never mind that most evangelicals don't recognize Buddhism as a religion at all, and consider it a philosophy, and your 'prayer' is like mainstream Buddhist prayer, and really more like inward meditation, rather than an intercessory plea to an external agency, like what caused this whole argument fuckfest.

By that measure, I 'meditate' inward when doing yoga, so fucking what. I don't rub it in people's faces about how hard I'm doing it on their behalf, etc.

Basically anything to couch or cover for religion, you will spin. Very strange for a supposed atheist.

[Starboard Tack]

129. I do not not couch or cover for religion

I have no issue with atheists who don't pray or believers who do. It is a personal thing.
My only issue is with bullies and assholes who try to lmpose their beliefs on others. Live and let live.

[AtheistCrusader]

134. And where do you imagine you see people imposing their beliefs on others.

Lets play a game. You name one, and then I will. I'll spot you one even though the burden of proof is on you.

Catholic church, 2009, I-1000, sole organized opposition to legal physician assisted suicide in Washington state. Rather than just tell members of the church they couldn't commit suicide, they spent over a million dollars, pulled out catholic celebrities like martin sheen to stump against the initiative, and lied their asses off to try and impose their doctrine against suicide on the entire state.

Your turn. (Enforcing the law, such as the First Amendment via the SC 'lemon test' doesn't count, as its the law whether atheists do anything about it or not.)

[Starboard Tack]

139. How about every idiot who thinks carrying guns around makes society safer

The NRA and its supporters try to impose their beliefs on everyone.

[AtheistCrusader]

140. That's ok. I knew you couldn't do it.

[okasha]

143. Uh, yeah, they do.

Open carry, no background checks at gun shows, stand your ground, attempts to force churches to allow guns in the sanctuary---

Gun nuts make life more dangerous not just for sane people but for other gun nuts.

[AtheistCrusader]

147. Which has nothing to do with imposing beliefs (in the conext of a religion thread) on others.

It was a pathetic sleight of hand, but it appears he won't be able to carry out his grand plan, due to an untimely hide upthread. So we wont get to see where that rabbit hole went.

The example I gave, and the context of this thread was imposed religious belief, not any fucking thing under the sun that struck his fancy.

[truebrit71]

114. And that was.....?

Or do you just label indiscriminate people as vermin?

Sorry Right Direction, but everyone knows who Justin was referring to, and you jumped in, with both feet, to take your shot.

The shame of it is that a jury didn't hide your vile comments.

Enjoy your little "victory" on the yacht, but know full well you have been counted and measured and have come up short.... again.

[Starboard Tack]

116. As a fellow Limey, you should know your nautical terms better.

Regarding your insistence in referring to individuals as vermin, I suggest you ask those who sel-identify.
It always feels good to be counted and measured, especially by my fans.

[cleanhippie]

144. It's much better when a jury of your peers does the counting and measuring...

and finds you lacking.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=195640

[rug]

145. That explains your three hides.

[cleanhippie]

148. You mean your three hides.

About rug
Statistics and Information
Account status: Active
Member since: Thu Nov 18, 2004, 04:29 PM
Number of posts: 67,825
Number of posts, last 90 days: 1226
Favorite forum: General Discussion, 132 posts in the last 90 days (11% of total posts)
Favorite group: Religion, 829 posts in the last 90 days (68% of total posts)
Last post: Mon May 4, 2015, 01:17 PM

Jury
Willing to serve on Juries: Yes
Eligible to serve on Juries: Yes
Chance of serving on Juries: 40% (explain)
2000 or more total posts: +20
200 or more days of membership: +20
20 or more posts in the last 90 days: +20
Star member: +40
3 posts hidden in 90 days: -60
TOTAL: 40

[beam me up scottie]

149. It's a conspiracy!

First he blamed Warren, then me, then AC for his hidden right wing op.

Now it'll be all your fault he's being silenced.

[rug]

150. The only thing you can silence is intelligent conversation.

[beam me up scottie]

152. Like this intelligent conversation?:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218195530

You posted right wing garbage and it got hidden.

Deal with it.

[rug]

153. Case in point. Your purpose here seems to be no more than extraneous meta.

I showed you this before but, unsurprisingly, it didn't penetrate.

Now before you go on with your usual "Big Lie" revisionism, despite pissing you off, that article is not "right-wing bullshit". In fact it doesn't mention politics at all. But it does shred the failings of the so-called new atheists. Re the alert (double check with Warren), rather than challenge the content, linked to extraneous articles suggesting it was from a banned source on DU. Which is, of course, complete bullshit.

When you don't post originsl bullshit, you repeat old bullshit.

Now, why don't you comment on the content Harris-Chomsky exchange? Or is tjhat more right wing garbage?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218195701

Other than the flitting meta you posted.

Perhaps it's harder for you than I thought.

[Major Nikon]

154. Results...

On Mon May 4, 2015, 07:04 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Case in point. Your purpose here seems to be no more than extraneous meta.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=196211

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Poster is accusing another member of being stupid:
"I showed you this before but, unsurprisingly, it didn't penetrate."

"Perhaps it's harder for you than I thought."

Insulting someone's intelligence because you disagree with them is over the top.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon May 4, 2015, 07:08 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If we hid posts for insulting someone's intelligence the only content left would be kitteh pics.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't think that alerts from this group should be inflicted on the rest of DU. I get called to these and I don't bother looking, I just leave. Sorry your feelings are hurt then don't discuss this shit.
Shit, damn it. Am I gonna go to hell for saying that?
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: A close PA, but not worthy of a hide.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[rug]

155. Thanks for the reslts.

That's about half a dozen the last two days. Very busy people.

[cleanhippie]

156. One cannot silence what another is incapable of.

[rug]

151. Oh that's right. I missed that you fail to donate to DU.

Must have missed it since your forced vacation.

[cleanhippie]

157. Is this really what you've been reduced to, rug?

Is that all you have left, an ad hom about my donation status and a bald-faced lie about a "forced vacation"?


Wow, just wow.


And so very, very sad.

[rug]

158. Yes, I too frequently find myself reduced to replying to your gleeful meta.

[AtheistCrusader]

159. And how's that working out for you?

[cleanhippie]

161. So far, so good, as best I can tell.

He keeps up this pace and he'll have his own forced vacation.

[rug]

162. Other than my IQ dropping, just fine.

[AtheistCrusader]

163. Well, you should probably have that looked at.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[rug]

165. I find it's in direct proportion to whom I'm speaking.

You may not here from me for a while.

[AtheistCrusader]

166. Why? Planning on getting a couple more hides?

[rug]

167. No, stupidity and meta are poor topics for discussion.

You apparently disagree.

Although, I'll give you this: you rarely use smileys.

[AtheistCrusader]

169. I aim to please.

[cleanhippie]

160. Make a change then. If you continue on the current path, you'll find yourself on a forced vacation.

How happy were you giving up DU during Lent? Maybe more of that is in order.

[rug]

164. No, hippie, it's you who have to change.

Meta and smileys make lousy discussion.

If you continue making personal snark directed at members, as you just did, your next vacation may be sooner tan you expect.

[cleanhippie]

168. Lol, yeah right.

Are you talking to yourself? You have THREE hides (two in recent days), and I'M the one in danger?

[rug]

170. QED.

I have yet to have a DU vacation.

[cleanhippie]

171. You've become incoherent.

First you accuse me of having a vaca, then deny that you are waaay closer to one than I am.

Take a break, man. It's getting to you. Or something.

[rug]

172. Not the first time you've encountered difficulty understanding, I imagine.

[cleanhippie]

173. Your imagination IS the problem.

[cleanhippie]

142. You, Sir, are asking WAAAAAYYYY too much.

At least have the intellectual honesty to stand by your slurs, rather than try and wriggle your way out of it like some recalcitrant child caught with your hands in the cookie jar.

C'mon, man, if he stopped doing that, what would he have left? Don't take away the only thing he does well.

That's a very special kind of bullshit. And you have it by the yacht-load.

Exactly.

[beam me up scottie]

102. Link to you calling atheists vermin:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1225&pid=595

Starboard Tack (10,719 posts)

7. Ignore them. They neither help nor hinder

They are irrelevant and it is their irrelevance that both pisses them off and motivates them. They have no substance and seek to feed off those who do. Responding to their mockery and theophobia only encourages them.
If you leave crumbs on the lunch room counter, the vermin will come to feed. Keep it clean and they will crawl back to the dark corners to fester and eventually consume each other.

Take comfort in the knowledge that most of us, including atheists, are praying in our own ways for those who are suffering. And we don't care if some choose to pray to a deity. It's the thought that counts.

Being an atheist doesn't preclude one from lying about what they posted, either.

As someone who delights in comparing same sex marriage to marrying hamsters and dogs, your calling out others as "phobes" is the height of hypocrisy.

[Starboard Tack]

105. Thanks again BMUS for your support

As we can all see, I mention nobody on DU and nor did Justin in his OP. Neither did I mention any group.

Apparently, you and a few others have decided to own the description, but that, dear heart, is on you.
Have a wonderful May Day!

I never realized when I posted it how prophetic it was, but I thank all who have come forward to back me up, especially you

[beam me up scottie]

106. You were instructed not to repeat your behaviour by a host of that group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6590512

Is justin lying?

You even pm'd muriel about it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6590495

[Starboard Tack]

107. Again, thank you for making it clear that there was no reference to DU members

And kudos to those who have owned it. I applaud their honesty, if not their intent. You have been very helpful.
My promise to Justin was in reference to any posts I make in Interfaith. Thanks for your support and understanding.

[BlueJazz]

77. I've been known to pray up a storm when my horse is coming down the stretch at 10 to one.

[Starboard Tack]

79. I think prayer may well be an effective method of communication with animals

[BlueJazz]

80. It must work 'cause the past few months have been quite lucrative.

[Starboard Tack]

81. Cool! Horse whisperer.

[Goblinmonger]

82. Is that how you got consent

to marry your hamster? Because I don't think talking to an animal through prayer will get you out of your bestiality charges.

[Starboard Tack]

83. I must confess that we never actually got married.

We eventually realized that we were incompatible on certain levels, but we always felt it was nobody else's business should we have decided to tie the knot.
Remember GM, it isn't about whom or what you marry, but your RIGHT to marry. Nobody else's business, especially the government's or the church's.
Hopefully, your SCOTUS will agree with me on this and allow same sex couples the same rights as heterosexuals, as well as weirdos like me.
I also support the RIGHTS of polygamists, not just pet lovers and siblings.

But let me clarify that supporting a right does not always mean endorsing the practice.
For example, I strongly support a woman's right to choose. That does not mean I advocate using abortion as a means of birth control or population control.

Back to your question, the irony is that we wouldn't have needed "consent", just as nobody needs consent. What we need in society is acceptance, not consent.

Now, what is with the BESTIALITY CHARGES? Do you think marriage is the same as sex? eww!

[AtheistCrusader]

89. Dogs, hamsters, voles, and bicycles cannot consent to a contract.

Marriage is a legal contact, hence the registration/license/witnesses that accompany it.
Your dog is not capable of Consent(TM) as a party to a legal contract.

This has been pointed out to you repeatedly, yet you CONTINUE to spew this bizarre talking point, and ignore that it is the basis for the 'slippery slope' anti same-sex-marriage arguments offered by the political right/religious right.

You are spewing the BASIS for the anti-SSM argument used by characters on the right such as Rush Limbaugh.

[Starboard Tack]

91. Ah, but apparently, voles can be strangled with impunity

Give up Mr Crusader! You're flogging a dead horse.

[AtheistCrusader]

92. I will continue to point it out as long as you insist on perpetuating this cruel meme.

It's a false association. There is no reason for you to bring the issue of marrying a dog into the same sex marriage conversation. No valid reason anyway. You are handing the right wing slippery slope crowd a box of ammo every time you do it.

Please stop. Something is wrong with your position if you link the two issues, even in a way you consider 'positive'.

[longship]

109. I don't mind, just keep it to your damned self.

Do not impose it on me nor anybody else.

Just like it says in Matthew 6. Don't pray like fucking hypocrite.

Then we'll be fine.

[Starboard Tack]

111. I couldn't agree more

[mr blur]

118. Ah, irony! So you do understand *something* nt

[AlbertCat]

120. Apparently, not all atheists are dismissive about praying

Who on Earth ever claimed they were all dismissive about praying?


I'm sure there are some atheists who believe in homeopathy or ancient astronauts too.


What's your point? That atheists are people too?

That's big of you.

[Starboard Tack]

121. You got it Albert!

I don't know if you've been following this and some other threads, but a few of our fellow atheists have been making some pretty ugly comments regarding prayer and those who pray. I just wanted to point out that prayer is not exclusive to believers.

[muriel_volestrangler]

136. His point is that he calls any atheist who does dismiss prayer 'vermin'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1225&pid=595

He is just posting this to say he accepts some atheists (eg himself) are not 'vermin'. But to him, if you disagree with him on the seriousness and usefulness of prayer, you are 'vermin', and will end up festering in a corner and consuming each other.

That was what he said in the Prayer Circle Group, so you can imagine the kind of thoughts that make up his prayers to whatever.

[AlbertCat]

137. the seriousness and usefulness of prayer,

A prayer is just like a curse..... neither have any effect on the receiver unless they know about it. And then they do it to themselves: anything good that may randomly happen goes in the "See?... prayer works" column, and anything bad that possibly may happen goes in the "OMG, the curse is working!" column.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

126. In my experience,

I have never seen prayer to do anything to change circumstances. In my experience, it is absolutely worthless in making things better.

So I don't pray. I think it's a waste of breath.

[840high]

128. When i start worrying about

things and can't stop myself - I pray. You can't pray and worry at the same time. Works for me.

[Starboard Tack]

130. Fair enough. I'm sure it is a very hard thing to quantify in terms of results.

How could we ever know if prayer had any effect? My ideavof prayer has nothing to do with expecting results. More about hope.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

132. Hope doesn't work so I gave up on hope.

[Starboard Tack]

133. Sorry to hear that. I've been very lucky in that department, so far, at least

Not much intense prayer involved, mostly just a positive outlook on life with a splash of hope, here and there.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

141. Thank you for your concern.

I try to have a positive outlook because you will live longer if you're not grumpy and mad all the time. However, hope is unrealistic for me in some cases. It's really a waste of energy.

I have been in situations that I thought were just fine and then when somebody told me the reality, in other words, what a horrible person they thought I was, all hope of a positive relationship with them just came down like a ton of bricks. I was being a misguided optimist. So then I have to deal with the very unpleasant reality that this person probably hates my guts and I had no idea.

[goldent]

146. Fascinating! Learn something new every day