U.S. Muslims ask why their religion's condemnation of violence often goes unheard

[cbayer]

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-muslim-condemnation-20150509-story.html

By SARAH PARVINI

May 9, 2015

Saaliha Khan scrolled through her Facebook feed and pored over posts expressing sadness, dismay and disapproval, the kind of messages that always appear after an attack carried out in the name of Islam.

It was just past midnight on Monday, and two Muslim gunmen had been killed about six hours earlier in a shootout outside a controversial cartoon contest in Garland, Texas, which featured images of the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

“If you want to defend the honor of the Prophet, do so in a way that is consistent with prophetic manners and ethics, not violence,” Omid Safi, director Duke University’s Islamic Studies Center, wrote less than 12 hours after the shooting.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations sent out an email: “Bigoted speech can never be an excuse for violence.”

more at link

[skepticscott]

1. Maybe it's because their religion precipitates so much violence

Maybe it should be a clue to them when they have to "condemn" violence as often as they do.

As you yourself are so fond of pointing out, cbayer, if everyone is telling you that you have a tail you might want to look behind you. By the same token, Muslims who keep harping on Islam being a "religion of peace" might want to take notice of how often it precipitates violence.

[hrmjustin]

2. Doesn't help the narrative that Muslims are violent so the media won't cover them.

[cbayer]

3. The media loves to cover the violence, but they aren't so interested in the peace.

Not sexy.

[hrmjustin]

4. Peace doesn't sell.

[okasha]

11. And you also have

the likes of Geller, Harris, F. Graham and their dupes all sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling la-la-la-lla as loud as they can.

[cbayer]

12. Yes, they drown out all the Muslims who are repeatedly denouncing the bad guys.

[Cartoonist]

5. Because they are condemning the wrong thing.

They condemn the violence, but praise the source. Same with Christianity. Westboro bad, Bible good.

[cbayer]

6. The source of the violence is not the text.

It is the individuals who have interpreted the text in a specific way.

Those individuals are condemned and the interpretation they use equally condemned.

Just like WBC - both the individuals and their interpretation are condemned.

Do you share ISIS's interpretation of the Qu'ran? Do you share WBC's interpretation of the bible?

[Cartoonist]

7. interpreted the text in a specific way.

The way the author wrote it.
I don't share anyone's interpretation of books that are full of bullshit.

[cbayer]

8. OMG, you are the authority on the authors of the Qu'ran and the Bible!

I did not know that and I bow to your superior wisdom.

You obviously share an interpretation. You have embraced the most negative interpretations available.

Sad.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. "The source of the violence is not the text."

So your claim is fine, an opposing claim is absurd as the claimant is not an "authority on the authors of the Qu'ran and the Bible!". Interesting.

[Yorktown]

18. Here, another text source of violence

It's even more authoritative, as it's sahi bukhari:

The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you like me to kill him?" He replied in the affirmative.

Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:270

Narrated Al-Bara bin Azib: Allah's Apostle sent a group of persons to Abu Rafi. Abdullah bin Atik entered his house at night, while he was sleeping, and killed him.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 370

[Lordquinton]

19. OMG I didn't know you were an expert!

You obviously must be a biblical/quaranic scholar cause you know the WBC are interpreting it wrong, and so are the Muslims who think they should kill to defend their prophet!

You seem to know what is the right and wrong interpretations much better than actual priests.

Tell us how you feel about other christian sects, like Mormons, and how you don't feel they deserve respect.

[skepticscott]

9. Here's the progression backwards

Violence-->individual committing violence-->sacred text that inspired individual to commit violence

I'll let rational people decide what qualifies as the "source". It's not hard. It definitely isn't "complex".

[Dorian Gray]

26. Because violence

never existed before the texts were written.

I'm not saying that some don't find inspiration for violence in the texts. I'm sure that is true. Just as some find inspiration for violence in Call of Duty or other video games.

[Fumesucker]

30. Video games usually don't have the imprimatur of the creator of the universe

[Yorktown]

17. How would you know? You haven't read the text, which IS the source of violence.

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah said: Who will kill Ka'b b. Ashraf? He has maligned Allah, the Exalted, and His Messenger. Muhammad b. Maslama said: Messenger of Allah, do you wish that I should kill him? He said: Yes.

Sahih Muslim, 19:4436

This is an authoritative hadith, sacred source of muslim jurisprudence.

[cbayer]

21. I disagree with you and will also reject you as any kind of self-appointed authority.

People with agendas are generally not good sources or objective information…. ever.

[Yorktown]

22. You do not 'disagree', you refuse to accept proof.

Objecting to the messenger is not a valid invalidation of the message.

The debate goes like this:

• me

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes,"

• you

[skepticscott]

29. Certain posters here are mired in the misguided belief

that if they simply state "My opinion differs from yours" that this automatically grants their opinion equal validity and equal support in fact and reason. Unfortunately for them, all "opinions" are not created equal.

[Fumesucker]

31. Everyone with an IQ above room temperature has an agenda

[cbayer]

32. Yes, but when their agenda has bright red points in a specific category, then

they are not the best source for objective information in that category.

[trotsky]

27. OMG, you are the authority on the authors of the Qu'ran and the Bible!

I did not know that and I bow to your superior wisdom.

[Promethean]

13. Go ask a Muslim

how important the story of Mecca and Medina is in islam. I have multiple times. Those that don't say "it is the most important story" will still say it is of extreme importance, on par with anything associated with jesus to christianity. If you cannot do this just look it up online. Note how it is the duty of every muslim to make a pilgrimage to the holy cities at least once in their lifetime. That is how important they and the events around them are to islam.

Next ask them to tell the story. They'll tell you about how the people of Mecca had fallen and were worshiping false idols and how Muhammed led his righteous army to cast out the idols. Remember this is if not "the most important story in islam" then one of extreme importance. So important that every muslim everywhere must visit the site in remembrance. A story of a war of conquest to destroy false religion.

Being founded in a war of conquest to wipe out opposing religions is mutually exclusive to being a "religion of peace."

[cbayer]

14. I just did look it up online and came up with a completely different story.

In fact the story I found said that Muhammed was driven out of Mecca and established himself in Medina. In Medina, he established himself and a constitution was formed which included muslims, jews, christians and pagans and strictly forbade violence.

Not I'm not saying you are wrong and this version is right, but what it means is that there is more than one story, and I'm not going to buy just yours without more evidence.

As for the pilgrimage, I'm going to register a big "so what".

[Promethean]

15. Driven out of Mecca

because he started insisting that everybody follow his god. You stopped halfway through the story. Didn't get to the part about how he returned to Mecca.

[cbayer]

20. I'm just not going to use you as the authority on this.

You gave one sided view. If I want to learn more, I will do it on my own.

In the meantime, I am not going to accept your rather horrifying views about Islam.

[Promethean]

23. My views of islam are no less horrifying than the ones I hold for christianity.

I just take their holy books at face value. When atrocity is described to me I take it as atrocity. I will never respect the ideas tied to such things like you insist we must.

Note also that I told you to look it up and told you that you stopped halfway. I have been actively encouraging you not to take me as an authority as well as encouraging you to look up everything. Of course like you said "If I want to..." meaning you of course don't want to pop your precious bubble of willful ignorance. Gotta respect religion no matter how horrible it gets.

[cbayer]

24. I have not doubt that you hold christianity with the same contempt as islam.

I have done my own research. I think you view is distorted by your own agenda. I asked a muslim. He also disagreed with you.

I frequently criticize religion and have no respect for certain religious ideas. It is you that I would suggest has a precious bubble of willful ignorance - gotta hate on religion not matter what it might do right.

From what I have seen, my opinions vary much more widely than your very, very narrow view.

[Yorktown]

25. Did your 'research' teach you Islam was spread by non violent means?

Some interesting entries would be Banu Qurayza, Ridda Wars or Muslim Conquests.

[trotsky]

28. "If I want to learn more..."

But in the meantime you'll feel free to scold and accuse all who disagree with your limited knowledge.

Amazing.

[Yorktown]

16. It would help if islamic jurisprudence itself condemned violence over blasphemy.

It would also help if violence meted in the name of Islam over blasphemy in muslim countries was condemned by the local clerics.

Pakistani Christian Couple Burned Alive in Kiln for Torching Quran
Setting fire to the religious text is considered blasphemy in Pakistan. While technically punishable by death under strict Islamic law, it is more common for vigilante mobs to take matters into their own hands.

And if official courts in muslim countries did not give ludicrous jail terms for blasphemy.

Veena Malik sentenced to 26 years in prison for blasphemy after appearing in mock TV wedding scene