Religion
Related: About this forumBishop Oscar Romero is on his way to being a saint. If he doesn't make it,
can he still get into heaven?
rug
(82,333 posts)Do you object to Romero being recognized for what he did?
http://liberationtheology.org/people-organizations/archbishop-oscar-romero/
Response to rug (Reply #1)
edhopper This message was self-deleted by its author.
rug
(82,333 posts)edhopper
(33,479 posts)Oops.
rug
(82,333 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)precisely because the Church believes he's in heaven. Everyone in heaven is already a saint; a canonized saint is someone whose presence in heaven is verified by martyrdom and/or miracles.
Romero is already commemorated as a saint in the Anglican Communion.
edhopper
(33,479 posts)Then confirming they are in heaven is a mistake.
okasha
(11,573 posts)A good many of the nonexistent saints--Christopher, eg., --were "canonized" by popular belief before a formal process was instituted. (Christopher has since been de-canonized, along with several others.)
edhopper
(33,479 posts)not Romero.
Thanks for the clarification.
rug
(82,333 posts)The modern process of canonization is relatively new, 400 years or so, and is filled with typical Roman legalism. Before that, saints were named by acclamation and endorsed by local bishops. It was a pious, but haphazard process producing as many saints who were simply weird as there were saints who were simply nonexistent.
Here's the book that set the modern process.
http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/discernment/Benedicti_Papae_XIV_Doctrina_de_servorum.pdf
edhopper
(33,479 posts)That they can find "miracles" when ever they need.
rug
(82,333 posts)The process can be corrupted but there remain many incidents that meet these strict criteria.
I'd say the process is about as reliable as any given state's Grand Jury system.
edhopper
(33,479 posts)Can get an indictment whenever they want?
I find it funny that a Church based on faith, where physical proof isn't possible, finds"proof" of sainthood.
It's all a silly dance.
rug
(82,333 posts)Nevertheless, I must concede the validity of certain indictments. And the existence of certain results with no possible cause.
Seriously, you should check out how these things are investigated.
If not, this entire discussion is the silly dance.
edhopper
(33,479 posts)And I have read non-Church reports about the people involved.
rug
(82,333 posts)edhopper
(33,479 posts)Talk about anti-climax.
phil89
(1,043 posts)you know it's 2015 right?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Is he being beatified because of verified miracles or because of martyrdom?
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,587 posts)Although it's controversial, they are claiming Romero's assassination arose from his work with the poor (liberation theology), and because his doing so was an expression of his faith, he died a martyr. Martyrs don't have to do miracles. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/11/oscar-romero-martyr_n_6444574.html
cbayer
(146,218 posts)This thread is just an excuse to take a dump of a good man because of his affiliation with the catholic church.
This kind of knee jerk antipathy is the kind of intellectual laziness that has been recently discussed here.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,587 posts)that person seemed to be claiming Romero wasn't real?? Anyhow, IMO, whatever the church decides to do, Romero was a great man who worked hard for the poor. He was what Christians should aspire to be; and even people who are not at all religious ought to acknowledge the value of his work.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)really confusing. I'm not at all clear on what that meant.
I am also a fan of Romero and feel that when the RCC does something right, which frankly doesn't happen all that often, we should stand up and cheer, not take it as an opportunity to attack some other part of it.
okasha
(11,573 posts)If you want to argue with it, address the Church.
It is self fulfilling.
Do you know what the process is?
know the "miracles" for JP ll and Teresa?
Do you know the process?
rug
(82,333 posts)There is a big problem with it.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2003/10/is_mother_teresas_miracle_for_real.html
I really didn't follow John Paul. There was an air of inevitability about that.
Yet, there do appear to be numerous incidents that completely lack a natural or scientific explanation.
That is the church's line. But in fact they often had medical explanations. Some claimed illness for which their wasn't a medical record. And so forth.
Not really stringent at all. It looks like the Church decides on the Saint and finds the miracle.
rug
(82,333 posts)You'd really need to look at the particular Cause to see if there was fraud or negligence in the investigation.
From what little I have read there are indeed incidents that cannot be explained. Which is not to say "miracle of the gaps". There are results with no possible cause.
I take that if confronted with one of the particulars, your position would be "unexplained" rather than "miraculous".
Take a close look at some of them.
BTW, I do not believe in God because of miracles. I believe in God despite miracles.
Leave it at that.
rug
(82,333 posts)The miracle may go beyond the possibilities of nature either in the substance of the fact or in the subject, or only in the way it occurs. So three degrees of miracle are to be distinguished. The first degree is represented by resurrection from the dead (quoad substantiam). The second concerns the subject (quoad subiectum): the sickness of a person is judged incurable, in its course it can even have destroyed bones or vital organs; in this case not only is complete recovery noticed, but even wholesale reconstitution of the organs (restitutio in integrum). There is then a third degree (quoad modum): recovery from an illness, that treatment could only have achieved after a long period, happens instantaneously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Causes_of_Saints#Assessing_miracles
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I think I really don't understand your question.
edhopper
(33,479 posts)not Romero
cbayer
(146,218 posts)And how does that apply to Romero?
edhopper
(33,479 posts)up thread.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)The only thing I can make of this is that some saw a cheap opportunity to attack a pretty great guy.
Am I reading that right?
The sainthood process. Not Romero.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)with some of the recent nominees.
But this isn't one of them and it is wrong to use this person to make an issue out of the process.