Religion
Related: About this forumDid Ireland Just Bury the Catholic Church?
http://religiondispatches.org/did-ireland-just-bury-the-catholic-church/BY MARY E. HUNT MAY 26, 2015
Photo taken May 23rd in the streets of Dublin by flickr user William Murphy.
The photo on the front page of the Washington Post said it all on the day after Ireland’s landmark same-sex marriage referendum. Two elderly Carmelite nuns in full habits were pictured leaving their polling place in Malahide, not far from Dublin. The caption read: “Roman Catholic leaders have led the opposition, but opinion polls signaled approval.”
Indeed, when the ballots were counted more than 60% of Irish voters agreed that “marriage may be contracted in accordance with law by two persons without distinction as to their sex.” Many people think the vote heralds the end of the Roman Catholic Church as we know it—but I think the reality might be more complicated.
I interpreted the Post’s photo of the nuns in all of its wonderful ambiguity. I assumed that the sisters had voted ‘yes.’ They are not church leaders, but lay people who surely understood discrimination when it was placed before them. I imagined that after decades in the same order they might even want to marry each other—or not! Given the scandalous way the Vatican has been acting with nuns of late, the old joke “the Bride of Christ wants a divorce” might be relevant. In any case, the people voted ‘yes’ to marriage equality and the world is better for it.
But does that mean the institutional church is out of business? No one knows. It certainly won’t go without a struggle. In fact, the “leaner meaner” church of Pope Benedict XVI could come roaring back with a vengeance.
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skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Just another "liberal" lay Catholic grasping at straws to rationalize her continued support of and membership in a virulently sexist and homophobic organization.
She and other lay Catholics who say they hate all this could form their own church tomorrow if they had the courage and really wanted to, but they don't. They want to belong to the existing Catholic Church forever, so they tell themselves that it's going to morph into exactly what they want, something they don't have to be ashamed apologists for every day of their lives. Well, they're welcome to it.
Cartoonist
(7,315 posts)So what has he actually done besides maintain the status quo and promote conservative priests?
What has he said about the Irish vote? He shows no leadership in letting his flunkies do all the talking. Especially when all they can say is hate filled bigotry straight from the Bible.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)is not encouraging.
He is making an initiative on global climate change, but on this particular issue, there isn't even talk.
safeinOhio
(32,671 posts)of the CC.
If it also evolves.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Why do you think the RCC cndemned homosexuality for close to two millenia?
Because they ALL were dumb priests, clerics, popes? Because they were ALL uncaring?
Or because they were stuck with idiotic bronze age doctrinal texts?
safeinOhio
(32,671 posts)I'd suggest you read up a little about St. Frances and St. Clare and the orders they gave birth to.
He has set a high goal by taking that name and is only one of few Popes that have come out of that order.
While in Rome a few weeks ago, I heard many people say they fear that he will be poisoned by the rich and powerful. He has put his life on the line to make changes in the church. Perfect? NO. I feel he is making changes that are positive.
He has stated that Gay and even atheist can be good people.
Pope Francis chooses humility above luxury possessions.
Condemned to the financial system.
He did one of the most important masses of the year in the chapel of a prison and kissed the feet of the prisoners.
The common people of Rome love the man. I don't think your statement "Because they ALL were dumb priests, clerics, popes? Because they were ALL uncaring?" is based on evidence, but on emotion.
By the way, I'm not a theist or Catholic or have ever been either. However I try to stay out of the trap of black and white thinking.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)about bigoted Catholic doctrine? Has he repudiated the notion that homosexuals are inherently disordered? No. Because he believes that wholeheartedly, the meaningless feel-goodies that he spews out as part of the Vatican's hard core Wonderpope PR campaign notwithstanding.
And please...do we have to hear the same bullshit again about poor, brave Pope Frank being whacked by the Vatican Mafia if he goes too far? That's nothing but a clever way to rationalize moral cowardice. If it were true, how do people justify supporting the RCC in any way, since they're claiming it is basically a criminal organization that maintains hierarchical control by contract murder?
safeinOhio
(32,671 posts)have a pretty good grip on history.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)They swallow what they're fed.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)a gay person must be celibate, right? They can't actually love the kind of person they want to. Does that sound like true tolerance to you? It does happen to line up with the dogma of the church though. It's not a "sin" to have homosexual attractions, it's just a "sin" to act on them. So NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
The new pope has put on a fantastic PR show and many people have clearly fallen for it. I don't buy the "his life is in danger" bullshit at all. It's a conspiracy theory made up by people who want to buy the whole PR package but are smart enough to realized Frank hasn't actually DONE or CHANGED anything in his bigoted church, and they need something to try and resolve those contradictions.
safeinOhio
(32,671 posts)in the Vatican Bank?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)church doctrine, teachings or religious practice and policy.
What's your point?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)The Vatican was feeling pressure from world governments on their corrupt banking practices. Frank was pretty much forced into having to do something. But then there's this:
Vatican bank reformer called to abuse inquiry
http://www.thelocal.it/20150601/vatican-bank-reformer-called-to-sex-abuse-inquiry
Formerly the top Catholic cleric in Australia, Cardinal Pell has become embroiled in the probe in his homeland which last week heard evidence from paedophile priest Gerald Ridsdale, who abused at least 50 boys over two decades.
Pell, who accompanied Ridsdale to court in 1993 when he admitted widespread abuse, has repeatedly denied knowing about any of the offences, helping move the priest to another parish or that he tried to bribe a victim to keep him quiet.
That victim was his nephew, David Ridsdale, who alleged he confided in family friend Pell about the assaults and that he was asked by him what it would cost to buy his silence.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)The Vatican has said little, but what they have said has been pretty negative (Parolin).
At least they recognize that it is a reality. There is no turning this back.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Anyone agreeing with homosexuality is out of the doctrine of the RCC.
Pretty simple, uh? But it's so cool to try to have it both ways:
- to stay counted as Roman Catholic because of the social cover it provides
- to agree with homosexuality because it's common sense.
Trying to eat the cake and sell it too is NOT a morally defensible position.
safeinOhio
(32,671 posts)"If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?"
I'm might just ask, who are you to judge?
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)A good man.
I admire Gorbachev. And I think Francis is a good man.
But it's the start of the crumbling of the doctrinal wall.
Once homosexuality goes, the obvious idiocies of the OT/NT become glaring.
safeinOhio
(32,671 posts)of course there are the obvious idiocies of the OT/NT, there is also the Sermon on the Mountain and other great ideas, even in the OT by the Prophets. We should really look at context of all writings. I'm a fan of Karl Marx's writings, that doesn't make me agree with many Marxist, even Karl Marx said he wasn't a Marxist.
pinto
(106,886 posts)Disagree with tagging the NT as "idiocies", though. I find some very compassionate, humanist and populist messages in the recounted Jesus sermons and the overall story.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)And Yeshua did find wonderful images to get the golden rule through.
Lots of chaff still.
pinto
(106,886 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)even the quote from the poster you responded to is not an indication of change by either the Pope or anyone of his contemporaries as indicating any change in the Church.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Gorbechev instituted reforms, what is Pope Francis doing?
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Francis is following suit (and they both are nice men)
GBR/DDR border, gay marriage, crumbling outposts.
Praised be the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)the attempts at economic and political reforms are what ultimately lead to the dissolution of the USSR. But it certainly wasn't inaction on his part, but his program of Perestroika. It was an attempt at creating a semi-market economy within a command economy while also attempting political liberalization. It had unintended consequences, but the fact is that he did far more than nothing.
The Pope, and his officials in the Vatican are not instituting any such reforms, in fact, they don't seem to see a need to. I think he's following through with what Pope Benedict started, of a smaller, but more orthodox church. If this weakens the church enough where it no longer controls the purse strings of some of the largest charity and health care systems in either the country or world, the sooner the better. But I wouldn't term this pope a nice guy.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)In both cases, these guys believed in their systems: Gorby, the USSR; Frankie, the RCC.
In both cases, they did some 'reforms': Gorby, some free market measures; Frankie, some nice words about gays.
What is vital to note in both cases is that the reforms were sapping the prevant ideology.
I would go as as far as to say Francis was more 'revolutionary' than Gorbachev.
Once the Pope asks "who am I to judge gays?", he's contradicting anti-gay scripture.
The Net and Francis will be the end of Christianity. ISIS and Saudi Arabia will destroy Islam through fundamentalism.
Good.
Time to restart the game without bronze age superstitions.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)The Church, since at least the 1960s, has always maintained that being gay is NOT a sin, its objectively disordered, but not a sin. The sin is acting on it.
Context:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23489702
Now an excerpt from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:-1px -1px 3px #999999 inset;"]2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm
Bolded parts of mine, to emphasize some issues. But, as you can see, a gay person "seeking God" would be celibate, and while there is some parts that aren't as objectionable, I have yet to see "unjust" defined.
Yorktown
(2,884 posts).. so the canonical fudge of abstaining form sex is a big fat help.
Anyway, the habit of religions of meddling with bedrooms is sick.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)That word SHOULDN'T even be in there but it is. Wiggle room to hate.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Against legally married couples in various ways. Fighting against antibullying laws, possibly even including employment and labor discrimination. All of it "just".
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)HAVE continued to judge homosexuals and homosexual behavior in the harshest terms. His statement is just meaningless PR bullshit that changes church doctrine, teaching and practice not one iota.
Cartoonist
(7,315 posts)Why does someone have to search for the Lord?
Fuck that shit!
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)If there were some sort of supernatural sky being, you would think it would make itself known. But nooooooo.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Here are some other things that bigot said:
The new pontiff is being hailed as a fresh choice, but there's nothing new about his opposition to gay rights
Pope Francis has been praised for his humility (he picks up his own luggage!), his acceptance of other faiths (he won’t insult the Prophet Mohammed in public addresses!) and his “precedent shattering” name choice (more humility!).
But the pontiff who is being hailed as a “new direction” for the Catholic Church is the same-old brand of theological conservative who opposes the ordination of women, abortion and the fundamental rights of gays and lesbians.
In fact, then-Cardinal Jose Bergoglio was a major force against the 2010 move to legalize same-sex marriage in his native Argentina. Though he ultimately failed, Bergoglio used the full weight of the church to crush the measure.
Here, a collection of his very worst quotes on the issue.
1. A Senate vote on gay marriage is a destructive pretension against the plan of God
From a letter to the Carmelite Sisters of Buenos Aires on the perils of marriage equality:
“Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”
2. Gay marriage will destroy the family
More from the same letter to the four monasteries of Argentina:
“The Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family… At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children.
3. Gay parenting is a rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts
Again:
“At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”
4. The political struggle against marriage equality is war
And finally:
“The bill will be discussed in the Senate after July 13. Look at San Jose, Maria, Child and ask them [to] fervently defend Argentina’s family at this time. [Be reminded] what God told his people in a time of great anguish: ‘This war is not yours but God’s.’ May they succor, defend and join God in this war.”
5. Gay adoption is discrimination against children
According to the National Catholic Reporter, Francis called gay adoption a form of “discrimination against children.” A comment that resulted in a public rebuke from Argentine President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said that Francis’ remarks suggested “medieval times and the Inquisition.”
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/14/pope_francis_on_gay_rights_his_5_worst_quotes/
His comments that gay marriage tries to destroy the family and comparing gender theory to Nazi propaganda :
Catholic leaders often use the term "gender theory" to refer to ideas that question or deny the God-given nature of sex differences and the complementarity of man and woman as the basis of the family.
"Why do I say ideological colonization? Because they use a people's need as an opportunity to come in and impose their will on children. But this is nothing new. The dictatorships of the last century did the same thing; they came in with their doctrine. Think of the Balilla. Think of the Hitler Youth," the pope said.
The Balilla was a youth organization instituted by Italy's fascist dictator, Benito Mussolini.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1500255.htm
I am perfectly qualified to judge a homophobic religious leader who uses hate speech against lgbt people, are you?
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)for any of this. It does make you wonder what kind of tortured internal rationalizations they have to go through to convince themselves that the pope is wonderful, when confronted with what he really thinks and says.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)When a Republican uses hate speech it's a race to see who'll be the first to use the No True Scotsman fallacy.
When the pope does it it's "meh".
He can't go against the teachings of the church, can't change the church overnight, hate the sin, who am I to judge?
Lather, rinse, repeat.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)when one of them tries to argue that the pope is not a "true" Catholic.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Just attribute his quotes to Santorum or any of the other famous homophobes they love to disown and hand out the popcorn.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)"Same sex marrige is from the father of lies"
The father of lies is satan.
So no, I don't buy it. No liberal should be taken in by this bigot's PR campaign, run by a former fox news guy.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)“The family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage, by relativism, by the culture of the ephemeral, by a lack of openness to life,”
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)anything else is a grave depravity. Haven't you read the Catholic Church Catechism?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)"I interpreted the Post’s photo of the nuns in all of its wonderful ambiguity. I assumed that the sisters had voted ‘yes.’ "
"But does that mean the institutional church is out of business?" - no it doesn't. The RCC is growing in Africa and elsewhere and will continue their reactionary policies as long as that trend continues. The church is looking south, not north, and that is the flock they are preaching to.