Australia's most senior-ranked Catholic says Jews 'intellectually and morally inferior'

[cleanhippie]

In a widely watched televised debate – which led to ongoing debate over the winner – Cardinal Pell said "the little Jewish people" were shepherds who lacked intellectual development.

"I've got a great admiration for the Jews but we don't need to exaggerate their contribution in their early days," he said on ABC television. "They weren't intellectually the equal of [the Egyptians or Persians] – intellectually, morally ... The poor – the little Jewish people, they were originally shepherds. They were stuck. They're still stuck between these great powers."

Later, Cardinal Pell, the Archbishop of Sydney, seemed to suggest the Germans had suffered more than the Jews during the Holocaust.

Asked why god permitted the Holocaust to occur, he said: "He helped probably through secondary causes for the Jews to escape and continue. It is interesting through these secondary causes probably no people in history have been punished the way the Germans were. It is a terrible mystery." When the debate host suggested that the Jews had suffered more than the Germans, Cardinal Pell said: "Yes, that might be right. Certainly the suffering in both, I mean the Jews, there was no reason why they should suffer."

Cardinal Pell subsequently issued a statement clarifying his comments and insisting he did not intend to offend the Jewish community.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9199453/Australias-most-senior-ranked-Catholic-says-Jews-intellectually-and-morally-inferior.html

[jonthebru]

1. Idiots

Another good reason to show religion the door and not set a place for religion at the dinner table.

[intaglio]

2. The nursery rhyme adapts well

I do not like thee, Monseigneur Pell,
The reason why I cannot tell;
But this I know, and know full well,
I do not like thee, Monseigneur Pell.

I do not like thee, Monseigneur Pell,
For you I wish there was a hell;
I wish you'd hear your faith's death knell,
I do not like thee, Monseigneur Pell,

I do not like thee, Monseigneur Pell,
The vile allusions that you tell,
Are bigotry you want to sell,
I do not like thee, Monseigneur Pell,

[longship]

42. Beautifully phrased

I hope it is published in the upcoming Oxford Book of Verse alongside Philip Larkin's Church Going (which was Christopher Hitchens' favorite poem.

[Humanist_Activist]

3. Love his non-apology apology, typically what you expect from a leader...

of a hate group.

[humblebum]

10. So then would you classify a group whose recognized leader(s) exhort

followers to "show ridicule, hate, and contempt..." as a hate group, too?

[Humanist_Activist]

11. You seem to have difficulty distinguishing people from beliefs...

This bishop dude attacked a group of people, showing contempt for a belief is not even remotely on the same planet as that, much less same ball park.

[humblebum]

14. Nice dodge. You insult the religion and you are insulting the people who

hold those beliefs.

[LeftishBrit]

16. Do you have the same view about insults to people's beliefs in other areas?

If you say that someone's tastes in music, or their beliefs in modern medicine or alternative medicine, are silly, are you insulting the people themselves?

What about political beliefs? If you ridicule Romney, are you insulting everyone who votes for Romney? If so, does this mean you don't have the right to ridicule Romney?

[humblebum]

19. Saying something is "silly" hardly rises to the level of contempt and hatred. But

I would imagine if someone's life was ordered according to the precepts of music or Romney, then they would be insulted.

[Act_of_Reparation]

20. You weren't asked whether or not one *would* be insulted...

You were asked whether or not you think an insult to a person's belief is thereby an insult to their person. The person's perception of insult is not relevant.

But, let's skip the small-talk and get to the crux of what you're doing, and that is special pleading. You want the right to criticize a person's taste in music or politics, but you don't want anyone criticizing religion, so you claim religion is a "different" idea, because people order their lives around it.

The problem is religion does not exist in a vacuum, and when practiced it affects all people, not just those who subscribe to it. The reality of the matter is if ever there was an idea worth criticizing, it is religion.

[humblebum]

29. Who said it was wrong to criticize religion. That is quite different

than calling for ridicule and contempt to be shown. That is the language of a hate group.

[LeftishBrit]

36. And there are plenty of people who might fit such descriptions.

Especially among younger people, there are plenty of people whose lifestyle and self-identification are very closely linked to their tastes in music and related tastes in clothes: (goths, emos, punks, etc.) And certainly political viewpoints are often very closely linked to a person's moral and social views, and/ or to their own social class and regional affiliation.

There is probably a lot more cultural encouragement to express 'hate, ridicule and contempt' for mothers-in-law, than for religion. I am not a mother-in-law, but I'm sure that those who are, find it pretty insulting.

I myself feel insulted if someone sneers at liberal-left policies. But I don't think that this means that right-wingers should not be able to speak or associate freely. If I find something offensive, I have a few choices: I can ignore it; I can argue and explain why I find it offensive, or I can choose to withdraw as far as possible from association with the groups or individuals that are offending me. What I don't have the right to do, is to demand that the Conservatives should cease to associate freely, or insist that their having meetings or publishing their views is somehow dangerous and sinister in itself. In fact, THAT is essentially where Stalinism, Maoism and similar outlooks were so dangerous - NOT that they included 'organized atheism'; NOT that they ridiculed their opponents; but that they attempted to suppress their opponents' freedom of expression and association - and down the slippery slope they went from there.

I don't ridicule religious people, or even religion. I believe in 'living and letting live' on such matters. My strong opposition is for people who use religion to justify right-wing views, or discriminate politically against atheists and religious minorities, or seek to impose religious rules on everyone.

[LeftishBrit]

15. 'Leader' of anything, my hind foot.

But I would find his comments no more than you'd expect of someone whose brother wrote very recently, in a wide-circulation newspaper, 'It is the Permissive Society and our lavish Welfare State which are an expensive way of making bad people worse.'

I would not consider either brother in the same ball-park of influential hate, as a formal religious leader who implies that the Germans suffered more than the Jews at the time of the Holocaust.

And no, I don't think this cardinal represents the whole of Catholicism.

[humblebum]

18. Then perhaps Dawkins who recently called for fans to show ridicule and contempt.

Somehow it just keeps happening and those examples are hardly the only ones.

[darkstar3]

21. That was Hitchens, and you shifting that quote to Dawkins after Hitchens' death is tasteless.

[humblebum]

22. Actually, it was Dawkins who made the statement recently in DC. nt

[darkstar3]

23. Link?

And was he just quoting Hitchens after Hitchens' recent death?

[humblebum]

25. Here.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2012/03/-atheists-richard-dawkins-reason-rally/1#.T4tqNrOwwV9

"Then Dawkins got to the part where he calls on the crowd not only to challenge religious people but to 'ridicule and show contempt' for their doctrines and sacraments, including the Eucharist, which Catholics believe becomes the body of Christ during Mass."

[darkstar3]

26. I'd like to see an actual quote.

The link you presented shows all of four of Dawkins actual words, supposedly, according to the quote marks. I want to see a full quote from Dawkins that makes it clear he isn't just quoting Hitchens himself. Maybe you could link to the YouTube video that Leontius supposedly watched..

Four words does not a quote make.

[humblebum]

27. Well, here's the vid, at about the 15:30 mark.

Maybe he's trying to channel Hitchens, but the words are exiting his mouth.

[darkstar3]

30. Oh, wow, if you wanted to quote-mine you missed out on SO much.

He actually said, for the quoteminers...

"Religion is an important phenomenon."
AND
"We need intelligent design."

And in your parsing ('cause you didn't even bother to quote), you picked on "mock them, ridicule them!"

That's hilarious.

For anyone who cannot view the video above, here's a link to the full text of his speech. I think you'll find it interesting. I know I find this interesting...

I am often accused of expressing contempt and despising religious people. I don't despise religious people; I despise what they stand for. I like to quote the British journalist Johann Hari who said, "I have so much respect for you that I cannot respect your ridiculous ideas."

Dawkins was saying what we here in the religion forum have been saying for a long time: That religious ideas do not deserve any form of extra respect, and that ridiculous claims (living up to their description) should be ridiculed. Much like the professor he is, he setup a premise and then he took his time building to his delivery on that premise.

So anyway, thanks for posting the video. Not only does it show that Dawkins is talking about mocking ideas and not people, but it was also a fun watch. I agree with everything he said there, and I think that just about anyone who wants to have a reasonable conversation about religion can find a lot of good in that text link I posted.

[humblebum]

31. Ridicule and contempt translated mean

ridicule and contempt. Your attempt to rationalize it as being expressed with a happy face is nauseating.

[eqfan592]

37. No, what's nauseating...

...is thinking about the mental gymnastics you must be performing in order to stick to your conclusion. It's enough to make my head spin!

[Leontius]

39. Amazing isn't it that the words their holy man speaks don't mean what the words their holy man

actually spoke mean . He must have been using parables of some kind to teach the masses.

[LeftishBrit]

40. Whose holy man?

I can assure you that most atheists did not become atheists as a result of Richard Dawkins, or any other speaker. It's not like a conversion! - at least not in most cases.

I am not even a strong fan of Dawkins as a speaker; I think he is clever but a bit too much into self-advertising. I live sufficiently close by, that I could go to most of his talks, but I don't. But I will ardently defend his right to free speech, without being treated as somehow sinister or evil or equivalent to holocaust-minimizers or similar.

[Leontius]

41. I also support the right of Dawkins to speak any way he choses

I don't think he's sinister or evil and have never said he is. My argument is not with what he said or the fact that he said it if he believes it good for him he should speak his mind. What I don't agree with is the bullshit someone was trying to pass off in his defense. The man said exactly what he meant to say and has not issued any statement I am aware of to clarify or amend his speech in DC.

[Leontius]

24. I just went back and watched the you tube video of dawkins in DC

you are absolutely correct at about 15:00 min mark he tells then to mock and ridicule. Tasty

[2ndAmForComputers]

32. I suspect you reply with a jab at atheists when the cashier asks cash or credit.

[Vehl]

4. "He helped probably through secondary causes for the Jews to escape and continue"

I lolled at this.

Considering that the catholic church was the primary cause in setting up and sustaining the Odessa route to help Nazi war criminals escape!!

[edhopper]

5. I wish you atheist would understand

that it's only the fringe fundamentalist who say these wacky things.
Not the leaders of the mainstay religious groups.

[cleanhippie]

6. You're right, I really have to dig deep to find these fringe groups saying these things.

I mean, if i would just focus on the myriad good things coming out of their mouths...

[Silent3]

7. I heard him say these things while debating Richard Dawkins

The guy is an ass, no doubt, but to cut him a little slack, all I think he was really trying to say is that, at the time Jesus supposedly lived, that the Jews weren't anywhere close to the most advanced, educated, or affluent culture at that time, in the context of admitting that the time and place that his God chose for the incarnation of Jesus was far from the most obvious for effectively spreading Jesus' message.

There was a small bit of thrashing about in his words as he began to dimly realize he'd fucked up, but I get the sense his problem was more insensitivity than any actual issue with the intellectual and moral capacity of the Jews.

[surrealAmerican]

8. Well, somebody here clearly is "intellectually and morally inferior".

It's too bad Cardinal Pell can't figure out who.

[Angry Dragon]

9. Jesus was a Jew

I guess he does not think much of his savior

[SamG]

12. I just learned that neo Nazi's dispute that fact.

They somehow feel that Jewish folks in the time of Jesus had to be identified differently than is Jesus in the Gospel.

I don't know what scientific criteria they use to reach their conclusion, but they do.

Neo-Nazi's, and Christians, about the same to me, they both follow a strange and very ancient mythology to reach their quite differing conclusions. Oh wait, Neo Nazi's claim to be Christians, too?????

[2ndAmForComputers]

33. So do old ones.

Ol' Chaplin Mustache Imitator himself said Jesus came to "warn us all against the Jew." He even mentioned the chasing away of the moneychangers as an example.

[rug]

13. Here is Pell's statenent to J-wire.

http://www.jwire.com.au/news/cardinal-pells-statement-on-qa/24308

Here is Pell and Dawkins' original event.

&feature=player_embedded

[LeftishBrit]

17. Whenever I see the word 'Pell' on DU...

I expect it to refer to the liberal senator, who instituted Pell grants. It's disappointing to see it refer to someone like this!

[2ndAmForComputers]

34. Ditto. Likewise for Phelps -- I think of the swimmer.

[LeftishBrit]

35. Me too!

[UnrepentantLiberal]

28. Mel Gibson's church?

[LeftishBrit]

43. And here's the latest on the oh so morally superior Cardinal Pell

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jun/29/cardinal-george-pell-charged-with-multiple-sexual-offences