Why Abrasive Atheism Will Always Sell Better

[rug]

September 27, 2015
by Neil Carter

- snip -

Like most thoroughgoing skeptics, I actually enjoy having my assumptions challenged. That’s how I got to be where I am in the first place. It’s how I keep myself sharp—how I keep learning new things. Since learning and discovery are essential joys in my life, intellectual stagnation is among my greatest fears, and that’s why I despise most of all the prospect of living my life in an echo chamber.

Rooting for Team Atheist

But nuanced dialogue doesn’t always sell well. Appreciated though it may be among those who are as addicted to rhetorical precision as I am, it still doesn’t draw as much attention as does the more caustic, acerbic, polemical approach of the critics of religion who paint with a much broader brush. It seems the harsher, more sweeping your diatribe, the further it goes in garnering support from the masses. That’s true of individual voices, and I’m beginning to think it’s also true of organizations. If you want folks to support your organization, come out swinging as hard as you can against religion of all kinds. That’s going to score you more money than measured, nuanced dialogue.

In case you haven’t noticed, atheists are just as prone to tribalism as are the members of any religion they oppose, and I think that has at least something to do with it. I know I’m not alone in observing that too many members of Team Atheist seem to think that deciding the correct number of gods equals zero means that everything else the human race needs in order to advance will magically fall into place, because science, I guess.

Some of this may come from an inescapable need to differentiate ourselves from our previous social context. Like adolescents going through a rebellious phase, some of the angry atheism may be a natural outworking of the individuation process. In order to wrest control of our culture from the greedy hands of religious empire, maybe a certain amount of tribalism is absolutely necessary. The celebrity worship, the groupthink, the branding, and even the merchandising may actually be necessary elements in our efforts to achieve the critical mass it takes to turn the tide of the culture wars.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godlessindixie/2015/09/27/why-abrasive-atheism-will-always-sell-better/

[Joe Turner]

1. I don't think so

Imagine a TV ad that tell's you that "if you buy our religion you are f**ked after death, but buy us anyway because we are right". Doesn't sound really appealing does it? What atheists don't understand and never will, is that it is instinctive in most humans to believe in a god and a afterlife. That notion may drive people like you crazy because you are so convinced there is no god or afterlife but you are arguing against human nature. That's why the atheism brand will never sell to the masses, especially when the global powers that exist in this world make sure your life is miserable on earth. To understand this will require that you challenge your own beliefs.

[rug]

2. Maybe. But Trump demonstrates that assholes sell, at least in the short run.

[Joe Turner]

3. The short run doesn't count

You have to change hearts and minds. Not a easy sell for atheism. People want to believe there is something after death given hardships and challenges of everyday life. So do I.

[Fumesucker]

4. Imagine eternity bored out of your pea picking mind...

The universe goes cold and dark in a few hundred billion years or maybe a few trillion, that will be exactly the same as Planck time when measured against eternity. As we age we get ever more alone, is that trend likely to reverse after we die?

[Joe Turner]

9. "As we age we get ever more alone"

Last edited Wed Sep 30, 2015, 10:16 PM - Edit history (1)

You cannot compare the finite lifespan on this plane of existence with possible other planes of existence where time may not exist. After all what is time? Is it just motion divided into intervals that can be measured? Or is time a dimension in and of itself? Any way I would not be bored out of my pea picking mind as long as I was learning and exploring. That could take at least a few billion earth years.

[Fumesucker]

25. The descriptions of the afterlife in various holy books do not sound like what you mention

Sticking with the Christian afterlife I'm most familiar with, you will be busy singing Hosannas to God in His Glory, busy, busy, busy and boring as umm... well, hell.

[tkmorris]

26. People want to believe lots of things

But the process of growing up means learning that wishing a thing were true doesn't MAKE it true. Some folks can handle that knowledge, though sadly quite a few still cannot. In the long run those who invest time and energy in believing that which isn't true will be winnowed downward, as those who see the world as it is and not as they wish it to be experience greater success. A sort of social Darwinism, if you catch my meaning. It may take some generations, but in time people will devote their energies to things that actually make a difference rather than wishing upon a star. Eventually people who cling to a belief in a God without evidence or reason will seem as pitiful and sad as Tom Hanks carrying out a conversation with a volleyball named Wilson.

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. It's instinctive to believe what your parents tell you

That's why the vast majority of people have the same religious beliefs as their parents. That means one god for some, several gods for others, nature spirits for others, ancestor respect or worship for others, and no gods at all for others.

Some believe in an afterlife; others believe in reincarnation, and others in no afterlife at all.

This isn't 'instinct'; it's conforming to the ideological system you were brought up in. A few people change their minds, and so different beliefs, or lack of beliefs, come about.

I think you are projecting your own beliefs as 'human nature'.

As for "the atheism brand will never sell to the masses", in a recent poll, 61% of Chinese called themselves 'convinced atheists'.

[Joe Turner]

18. Beliefs in the supernatural goes back before recorded history

Every single culture that ever walked this earth had some sort of belief system in the afterlife, or belief in spiritual awareness, even if it did not transcend to an afterlife. I'd says this trait in human kind is quite pervasive over many thousands of years. Maybe it really means something that should not be scoffed at.

[Yorktown]

32. Those beliefs outlived their usefulness

It might very well have served a purpose of reassuring people to imagine how the natural elements came from = gods.

Now, from Big Bangg to evolution, that purpose has vanished.

Not to mention that the 'holy' books are divisive, violent and contain heaps of crap.

[Cartoonist]

7. Any real evidence for that?

What atheists don't understand and never will, is that it is instinctive in most humans to believe in a god and a afterlife.
---
Which monkey's butt did you pull that out of?

[Joe Turner]

11. Uhh? You must not know many people

[Cartoonist]

12. I know a lot of people

Some are theists, some aren't. Kinda shoots your made up theory about instincts all to Hell. And I use Hell in the colloquial sense.

[Joe Turner]

16. I think you know a lot of people like you

not so much everyday folk. Your loss, everyone else's gain from what I can tell.

[Goblinmonger]

8. It's also "instinctive" to make spurious relationships.

Doesn't mean it's a good thing, and it certainly doesn't mean that I have to respect the post hoc fallacies of others when they make them.

Oh, and nice Pascal's wager in your first sentence. You do know that the flaws in that have been made very clear by this point in time, right?

[edhopper]

13. Because there is not a scintilla of evidence for it.

Seems the arogant ones are those that insist there must be something in the absence of all facts and logic.

[Joe Turner]

15. I think knowledge of hierarchies in this universe

highly suggests hierarchies of things past this world. Regarding facts and logic, you should give us your best theory of how something like a universe is created from nothing, spontaneously of course....without any help from supernatural powers. Have at it.

[Cartoonist]

19. You must be very new to the conversation

You state unsupported BS at the start. You follow it up with unscientific reasoning, and then you finish it up with the totally discredited intelligent design nonsense.

Don't pull that shit again unless you can answer this question: who created God?

[Joe Turner]

21. Your arrogance is on full display

There is nothing in your assertions that have to do with scientific reasoning. None. As to your main point: I'd believe that God always existed before I'd believe something was created from nothing. Prove that, and you might get more of a following than a few insecure self-convinced geniuses that can't see past their nose.

[Cartoonist]

27. You don't even know when you're contradicting yourself

I'd believe that God always existed before I'd believe something was created from nothing.
---

[Yorktown]

33. Start by defining God

What is it, what is it made of, where is it, what does it do?

Small details like that might help believing in 'it'.

I'm not holding my breath.

[Curmudgeoness]

37. I do believe that you don't know any atheists.

I am not insecure. I am not a genius, nor am I close to being a genius, but I am a thinking human being who has rejected the concept of god. You don't realize that many of us who consider ourselves to be atheists are just ordinary people. And we are not as few as you might think.

[Goblinmonger]

14. When did I say it was?

But while we are at it, are you going to argue that given there is ZERO evidence for it, that it is a 50/50 proposition that there is an afterlife? Because then we need to talk about a fallacy that you are making.

Are you going to address Pascal's wager that you made at the beginning of the post? Because that argument for belief in a higher power is just silly.

[Joe Turner]

17. "there is ZERO evidence for it"

We are alive and the universe if full of life. I think that may count for something. One could have said 200 years ago that there is zero evidence that light is the fastest thing in the universe. Now we know. You think in one dimensional terms.

[Goblinmonger]

20. How does the fact that we are alive and that there is life in the universe

mean there is an afterlife and a supreme being? I don't think that counts for anything on face value.

You think that "god did it" is a legitimate answer.

Are you seriously arguing for creationism?

[Joe Turner]

22. You need to stay on topic

Strawman arguments are a non-sequitur.

[Goblinmonger]

23. I am on target.

You are arguing a god of the gaps. Additionally you are arguing for creationism. How is that NOT a direct response to what you just typed.

And since we are talking about not staying on topic, when are you going to address the silly Pascal's wager you made coming out of the gate? Any chance you want to defend that nonsense? I'll even give you a preview of the first discussion we need to have: assuming you are right and that god is a vengeful prick that will punish one for not believing in him, how do you know that the religion you believe in isn't the wrong one and the your vengeful prick of a god won't punish you for being a Catholic, or Lutheran, or whatever you are?

[Joe Turner]

24. You are way off topic

I never once mentioned a vengeful god, or creationism, or any kind of religion I believe in. These are all made up arguments you have advanced in place of a logical, reasoned argument. You cannot argue your points without strawmen. You have made that abundantly clear.

[Goblinmonger]

28. Allow me to retort:

I never once mentioned a vengeful god

In Post 1, you state:

Imagine a TV ad that tell's you that "if you buy our religion you are f**ked after death, but buy us anyway because we are right".

Now why would one be fucked after death unless god was going to punish you?

or creationism

In post 15 you state:

you should give us your best theory of how something like a universe is created from nothing, spontaneously of course....without any help from supernatural powers.

If it quacks like a creationist...

or any kind of religion I believe in

Yup. That's why I gave a list and ended it with:

for being a Catholic, or Lutheran, or whatever you are?

So, about Pascal's wager that you were throwing out there? Any chance you are going to address that at any point. I've directly responded to every bit of nonsense you've said to me.

[Goblinmonger]

36. It's a bummer that you got locked out of this thread

because I'm sure you discussion of the silly Pascal's wager was going to be the next thing you posted.

Until next time (which I hope never happens).

[LiberalAndProud]

30. Your argument is weak and doesn't withstand scrutiny.

"It's so because I'd like it to be so," doesn't convince me that such a thing *is*, in fact, so. Any person who hopes not to self-deceive will quickly abandon that proof.

If a person hopes for an eternal future and, in hoping, believes, that's fine with me, as long as it doesn't lend life support to ancient, criminally unethical, increasingly irrelevant, demonstrably untrue texts.

[bluestateguy]

5. I'll give Dawkins credit for one thing

He is as hard on the Muslim fanatics as he is on the Christian fanatics. Dawkins is a Brit.

Many American atheists are far harder on Christian fundamentalists than their Islamic counterparts.

I'm a mainline Protestant, btw.

[Yorktown]

34. Read "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris

He is far harder on Islamic fundamentalists.

Rightly so as they are the more dangerous right now.

I think (I hope) Christian fundamentalism (ideally all religions) is on the way out

[MellowDem]

29. "Atheism" in the US anyways...

Can often seem abrasive to the privileged religious majority in even some really innocuous cases. Religion has had protected status for so long that now that it is no longer being treated as sacred, many people still think it is "rude" to question religious beliefs.

Add to that the fact that many atheists have a lot of really, really good reasons to be very, very angry at religion and what it did and continues to do to them, their loved ones, and the world at large.

When religion doesn't have much power and isn't inflicting massive harm, abrasive atheism will become less popular, but in the meantime, there is a very good reason for it.

And probably the biggest thing is that even most "moderate" religions have truly heinous ideas in them. Imagine living in a world where most people worshipped a genocidal asshole of a god. It would be tough NOT to be abrasive in that circumstance.

[Freelancer]

31. Atheism isn't an abrasive thing. In fact, it isn't a thing at all. It's the rejection of a thing.

Humanism is a thing -- not as comforting as believing in God, but also a lot less smitey. That makes Humanism less abrasive, IMO.