Religion
Related: About this forumThe Latest Mass Shooter Was Apparently an Anti-Religious Zealot Who Sought Companionship Online
October 2, 2015
By Allie Conti
Staff Writer
On Thursday afternoon, a 26-year-old with a shaved head and blocky glasses packed six guns and plenty of ammunition and headed to Umpqua Community College in Oregon. From there, he walked into a humanities building, and then into a public speaking class, where he reportedly asked students to stand and state their religions.
"Good, because you're a Christian, you're going to see God in just about one second,'" he said, the father of a victim who survived told CNN.
Nine people were killed, and several more injured. The shooter, who was wearing body armor and is not being named in this story, later died in a confrontation with police—and fits the twisted profile of many recent mass shooters in America.
Before he entered that classroom, the alleged killer didn't talk much. To his neighbors, he was just a quiet loner who wore the same military-style outfit every day and couldn't muster much more than an anxious "hi." In fact, the only person he was ever seen with was his protective mother, according to the New York Times.
http://www.vice.com/read/the-latest-mass-shooter-was-apparently-an-anti-religious-zealot-who-sought-companionship-online-1002
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Cartoonist
(7,316 posts)Now they have someone they can use to prove how bad atheists are. That parking lot guy didn't pan out, and Dawkins hasn't shot anyone . . . yet.
rug
(82,333 posts)And he sought companionship online.
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Dear Jury...this post was a work of humor and wasn't not meant to be taken seriously.[/font]
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)that ain't no atheist.
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)mr blur
(7,753 posts)it's time to find reasons to hate atheists again in the hope that everyone will stop talking about what a bigoted hypocritical little creep Blank Frank is.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Because, like all atheists, he was into the IRA... a Catholic military group.
Oh and he was "spiritual" too.
Seems like religion did more to confuse him than anything else.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Shame on you.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)He is the one that is throwing out the "he's an atheist" articles, right? Obviously it is something that come up on his Google Alert that he clearly has set up for negative atheist articles.
If the first post were an OP, I'd agree with you 100%. That it is in reply to what is clearly what Cartoonist is talking about, not so much. Why not go after rug for posting an article like this?
ETA: Good to see you back. 
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Good to be back.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I'm trying to let you know how this looks to atheists that are in this forum and see a pretty clear pattern in what rug posts. It doesn't feel so innocent and seems to have a pretty clear agenda.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)2 way street.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)And they are pretty clear and open about what that agenda is. rug likes to hide behind obfuscation and give everyone the "Who Me?" treatment.
And I'm not saying he gets a joy out of these people dying, but he clearly gets joy out of posting negative articles about atheists. If he at least admitted it, that would be fine. I don't think any of the atheists you are thinking of are shy about why they post certain things.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)And I don't see the others upfront about their agandas.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)but neither are you Cartoonist's keeper. And you went after him. Once you decide you are going to be someone's keeper, it seems like fair discussion to talk about why you aren't other people's keepers that do as much or worse as those you attempt to keep.
So I looked through the threads that have had responses in the past week in Religion. Here's what I found with what I think is the clear intent of that OP in parentheses:
Catholic Hospitals bad--trotsky (Catholics are forcing their morality on non-Catholics)
Grandma's meeting with the pope--Cartoonist (was a pretty interesting story and juxtaposes to the Davis meeting)
Pope undermined goodwill--trotsky (Pope ain't a good guy)
Pope is Catholic!--cleanhippie (Pope's a bigot and that shouldn't be a surprise)
Pope wrong about religious freedom--cleanhippie (Pope ain't a good guy)
LGBT people the Pope didn't visit--LostOne4Ever (Pope could have actually made a statement by visiting these kids)
took acid and rock demon convo--Warren Stupidity (mocking post of the "I took acid and now I believe in god" article)
Pope's climate change approach needs population control--mr blur (Catholics need to stop thinking every sperm is sacred)
You'll notice I didn't give a very positive spin to the intent and actually, if anything, spun a little negative.
So do you think those people would disagree with my statement of their intent? Do you think they would just say "it's a news article and that's it"? I don't think so. I think their intent is clear and I think they would stand behind it. Like a decent person should/would.
If you are going to say you aren't someone's keeper, than stop being other people's keepers.
I think you're a good guy, Justin. I believe if I ever get to NY and have some spare time, I'd like having a beer with you. I just think you don't always realize what other people are doing when they agree with you. Can all of those people (as well as me) be abrasive at times? Yes. And we'll admit it. And you'll notice we don't tell rug to stop being that way but instead just want those that tell us to stop with the tone to actually tell him that, too.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Cheers.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)and were on the verge of getting to something, but :cheers: i guess.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)It was a crapy post.
rug
(82,333 posts)Since you just mentioned me by name in four consecutive posts, you should get it off your chest.
Unless you'd rather spend your time on revisionist apologetics for the antitheist articles you think are just peachy.
Maybe you'd like to talk it about it over a beer.
rug
(82,333 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)You're not my keeper. 
rug
(82,333 posts)Grow up.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)You know how it is. Just like you and Dawkins and Harris and any other idiot that writes negative things about atheists.
rug
(82,333 posts)And I see you called me an idiot.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Again, admittedly not my best phrasing.
What a tough guy.
You do have your moments, counselor.
rug
(82,333 posts)You know, what I find amusing about all this is that nobody sitting somewhere posting anonymously on DU can do squat.
Yet a certain few are afraid to speak directly, preferring cheesy passive-aggressive posts dancing around the target of their spleen.
A pretty pathetic persona on display.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I just have no desire to talk to you about it.
You'll just have to lie about what I was posting on one of your alerts in the hopes you can get me a hide.
When the inevitable jury is called to this post, I ask that you please check this out so you know what I'm talking about. I know it's extra reading for you and that sucks, but rug did lie on an alert. And it's pretty vile.
rug
(82,333 posts)You can spin all the diversion you want but that is precisely what you do, regularly, consistently, and pathetically.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Just because I'm not talking to you about it doesn't mean it is passive-aggressive.
I was very forthright in what I said. There was little nuance.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Cartoonist
(7,316 posts)Nice spin on my post. I think it says more about your self perceived holiness and desire to wave your finger at bad bad bad atheists.
Spare me your sanctimonious BS. I said nothing about celebrating the tragic deaths of gun violence. My post was addressed to those who have no more decency than a floor covering who would use the religious identity of the murderer to make a partisan argument.
And what do you know, it's actually happening in the media at large. In fact, it happened here on DU with the OP. I notice you took no objection to it.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Cartoonist
(7,316 posts)You thought I would buy your BS and beg forgiveness after being shamed by his royal majesty.
Enjoy your sanctimonious finger waving orgasm. I notice you still haven't objected to the OP. I guess you're cool with atheist stalking.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
Don't make me laugh, I have chapped lips.
Cartoonist
(7,316 posts)Goblinmonger described rug's obsession quite clearly. No objections? That makes you no better than him.
Chapped lips? Try pressing them against a cold steel rail.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Poor you.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)Poor him.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)on a silver plate. I can't say I blame the Christians when it is obvious Christians were the sole ones murdered. Not much to complain to Christians about in this situation.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)From most accounts, it looks like this guy self-identified as a pagan. I'm not saying that was the reason he did it, but if that is true, there is plenty of reason for pagans to be pissed at Christians/Catholics for what they did to them over the centuries.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Look over here. We are being murdered because we're Christians. The Christians already thought they were being treated as second class citizens. That's how they feel and not about facts.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)then they need to get over their privilege. Because they aren't second class citizens here.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Over there.... in the Middle East?
I think he was committing suicide by cop because he was depressed and to get more attention...suicide's goal here.... he made it about religion.
One messed up person shot some Christians.... again. That's terrible! But there is still no general persecution of Christians in the US.
The Rug thing comes up, however, because he seems to "goes after" atheists all the time by posting ridiculous articles. So many articles. It's like he scours the internet just for them! His obsession, as someone might put it. But we are to believe they just pop up, and he finds them so very very interesting that he just has to share!
Here's an example:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218213759
"abrasive atheism"? Then he calls them assholes and compares them to Trump...in the 2nd post!
It's JUST SO INTERESTING. Who wouldn't post such mind expanding...er...stuff?
So I DO think there are opportunist Christians going after atheists with these murders. It certainly changes the focus of articles which should be about the continuing gun violence and the do-nothing Congress that will do nothing... that we ALL suffer.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)unless he has nothing else in his life, the easiest way would be well crafted Google Alerts. Let the Google do the work for you and have the articles emailed to you.
rug
(82,333 posts)if I were a presumptuous ass.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)My post pretty clearly states that I think you do have a lot going on in your life and likely use a pretty cool internet tool to get you the articles you post.
For that you infer I'm a "presumptuous ass." And I do note that even though you have been (incorrectly) talking about me not saying what I mean, you do a wonderful job of making a post where you can say "Who me? Calling you a presumptuous ass? Why, no, I didn't." If you have something to say, just come out and say it like I did in this thread.
rug
(82,333 posts)This one is simply cloying disingenuity. Maybe if you stop talking about me so obsessively you can prevent that. I'm really not interesting enough to consume so much of your attention.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)You said it.
Maybe you can alert on yourself.
rug
(82,333 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)As everyone can see, Rug apparently cannot remember what he just wrote. (besides a question would have a question mark after it, as any 2nd grader would know) Nor can he think of clever comebacks.... tho' lordy know he tries....and tries ....and tries...
He must be upset.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Lol, who am I kidding! He deserves everything he gets.
rug
(82,333 posts)Tsk.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)What is there to be upset about? Especially when it comes from posters here. Meh. (Talk about presumptuous asses)
I'm annoyed religion is hijacking any useful conversation about an important issue....again.
TheBlackAdder
(28,186 posts).
While the ire of most religions are against one or two opposing religions,
All of them seem to hate atheists, pagans and satanists.
===
Add in Christian Fundamentalism, or fundamentalism in any form, and that would produce a high conflict.
Oregon is relatively conservative, and that must have caused problems for someone who uses 'Lithium' as one of his handled alluded to.
.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)he grew up in LA, he attended a special high school for kids with emotional and mental health issues, his mother says he has Aspergers, he is a biracial black-white kid who claims to be a white supremecist, though his mother is black
He still lives with his mom at 26, and the biggest unknown piece of this is how and why he had all these weapons.
rug
(82,333 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)He seems to hate many people for many reasons.
rug
(82,333 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)I spent five years working for New York State representing insanity acquittees.
Very few people with mental illness commit any crime, let alone a violent one.
The statements in here about religion, violence and mental illness are based on false logic, deliberately false logic imo.
A mentally ill person who commits a violent crime with religious content to the psychosis no more means that the act was the result of religion than it means that mentally people, per se, are dangerous.
Cartoonist
(7,316 posts)Mental illness is beyond my understanding.
Would you say the Boston Marathon assailants were mentally ill or motivated by their religious ideas? It's too easy for theists to make apologies for the religious influence by claiming mental illness. It's also too easy for the religious to jump on cases like this one to cast aspersions on the anti-religious.
rug
(82,333 posts)In the end, I think it was a political act by two brothers who, for whatever reason, arrived at the point that destroying their own lives by destroying others' lives was a rational thing to do.
In their case, religion was the route to get there.
When I hear about suicide bombers and terrorists drenched in ideology, I am reminded of the Baader-Meinhof Gang and Red Army Faction in Germany, as well as the Weather Underground in the U.S. I don't think there is any dispute they were not motivated by religion, yet they ended up at the same place.
I think psychologists see it as a form of cognitive bias.
Cartoonist
(7,316 posts)Did they know they were destroying their own lives? I would think that they thought themselves clever and under the mistaken belief that Allah had their back.
rug
(82,333 posts)Whether they saw themselves getting shot in the street and under a boat is something else. But they had to know their lives as they knew it would end, even if they somehow escaped.
It's interesting what you said about Allah. One of the categories of cognitive bias is The Gambler's Fallacy.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I don't think that message is consonant with good mental health.
rug
(82,333 posts)Fallible, but inherently good.
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Born evil and damned because: A) born because of sex; and: B) Somebody ate an apple.
rug
(82,333 posts)But is not representative of Christianity.
ck4829
(35,069 posts)Right off the bat: I said the same thing about Hicks, that he was not Atheist because he was Atheist, but because he believed others were inferior and I'm not saying his religious/lack of religious views were the motivation but his dehumanization of others was. And no, it's not something Atheists in general think, but it was particular to Hicks and this killer's views were particular to him.
Whatever you want to call this guy 'spiritual but not religious-Satanist-pagan-Atheist', I think he had it for the same reason Hicks was atheist. Their beliefs were a means to an end, it wasn't about emotional maturity but about creating an illusion of superiority. They both viewed everyone else as inferior and less intelligent and so they formed their political/religious ideologies to reflect that they think they are smarter or even more human than others. I am sure that when more information about this killer comes out, this will be confirmed, that his ideas were formed solely to reinforce to him that everyone else is less capable of agency than he is.
If you want to stop these mass killings and a lot of individual killings, this is the thing we all need to say is abnormal. You can have gun control, you can make psychological screening, but until you go out and make this moral solipsism of "I'm the only real sentient person around here and everyone else is an animal or a machine" a social bad and make it a cultural norm that this solipsism be opposed and be challenged like racism, sexism, or homophobia; then you are not going to get very far.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Those that feel less than others are easy targets for exploitation by those that tell them they are more than others. It is a form of wish-fulfillment through manipulation.
They find the one true belief, and as holders of the absolute truth, religious or not, they judge all others as inferiors. This allows them, depending on that belief, to engage in all kinds of unspeakable acts because the others are now lesser beings not deserving of sympathy or respect.
Heddi
(18,312 posts)I have known several people who label themselves Atheist - not because they don't believe in God, but because they see themselves as God, or the highest power. These folks are true Nihilists who "believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy." To worship something would mean that something was above them, greater than them, smarter than them. That's not possible.
These folks tend to be extreme Libertarian/fascist types as well. It would not surprise me if these folks I knew (many years ago, in a different life) did some spree murder because of a perceived slight. I suppose the only redemption is that they're now all 40 or just beyond, have mellowed in their old age and have quasi-respectable jobs and splintered family, and have become less nihilists and more libertarian/extreme right wing politically.
Their brand of Atheism is different from mine in that i don't see myself as the highest power. If there were evidence of a God/Gods/Etc I would be open to examining that evidence for myself. But I don't believe in God because I don't believe there is a God to believe in.
Their brand of Atheism is that there is no God because they are God. It's akin to the "atheism" of North Korea and Stalin - it's not so much Anti-God, but Anti-Any-God-But-Stalin-or Kim-il-Sung. North Korea and 1940's Communist Russia were anything but Atheist societies - they were/are quite theocratic but the Gods that must be worshiped are the heads of state.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)than all those sheeple
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)May they rest in peace.
Response to rug (Original post)
haikugal This message was self-deleted by its author.
Stargleamer
(1,989 posts)McGowan told family members that the gunman didn’t specifically target Christians but asked them about faith. The shooter, apparently planning to die during the massacre, told students: “I’ll see you soon” or “I’ll meet you soon.”
…
“The shooter would call a person: ‘You, stand up,’” Salas said, recalling what her son told her. “And then he would ask them if they were a Christian, knew God, or had religion. And it wasn’t like it was stated on TV. It wasn’t about that he was just trying to pinpoint Christians, no.”
The shooter would tell them it wouldn’t hurt.
“And then he would shoot them,” she said.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2015/10/gunman_in_oregon_college_shoot.html
NonMetro
(631 posts)The cause is probably something closer to home for this confused person. He described himself as "spiritual." He was also apparently mentally unstable. Something set him off, and we may never know what it was. But if we look at other school shootings, such as Columbine, it boiled down to something personal. Somebody may have said something to him, or people may have treated him in a way that finally got to him in his confused mind.
I'm not saying you're not correct. Maybe, but zealotry doesn't seem to fit in this case.
No Vested Interest
(5,166 posts)of that public speaking class.
The professor, in his late 60's, was apparently killed without the question of religion being asked.
Had the professor, or someone in the class, spoken of religion in the other previous classes?
The killer was known to have spoken very little to his neighbors and stayed in his room at home, using the computer.
Is it odd that he was in a public speaking course, or was he there to solve the problem that he seldom spoke?