Gay priest decries 'inhuman' treatment of homosexual Catholics

[Warren Stupidity]

In a letter to Pope Francis this month, Krzysztof Charamsa accused the Church of making the lives of millions of gay Catholics globally "a hell". He criticised what he called the Vatican's hypocrisy in banning gay priests, even though he said the clergy was "full of homosexuals"
...
The Polish priest has released to the BBC a copy of the letter he sent to the Pope, written the same day as the announcement, in which he criticises the Church for "persecuting" and causing "immeasurable suffering" to homosexual Catholics and their families.
He says that after a "long and tormented period of discernment and prayer", he had taken the decision to "publicly reject the violence of the Church towards homosexual, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual and intersexual people".
...

The priest goes on to thank Pope Francis - who is thought to have a more lenient attitude on homosexuality than some of his predecessors - for some of his words and gestures towards gay people.
...
But Krzysztof Charamsa says that the pontiff's words will only be worthwhile when all the statements from the Holy See that are offensive and violent against homosexuals are withdrawn.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34654581

[skepticscott]

1. Of course it's "inhuman"

The Church is just doing what gawd wants them to...or so they claim.

[mr blur]

2. Nail on the head here:

But Krzysztof Charamsa says that the pontiff's words will only be worthwhile when all the statements from the Holy See that are offensive and violent against homosexuals are withdrawn.

Otherwise it's just the usual weasel words from the PR Pope.

[Hoppy]

3. The Church is not a democracy.

Nobody gives a fragrant fart what you think?

The collection basket is coming down the aisle. Jesus needs money.

[rug]

4. You do recall he was let go becase he had a lover in violation of his vow of celibacy, don't you?

Here, let me refresh your memory:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218214326

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218214528

Have you found a new tool, warren?

[LiberalAndProud]

29. Attacking ad hominem and ignoring the criticism doesn't pursuade me in favor of the leadership.

I wonder why getting caught with a lover is worse than raping children. Not a problem for you to reconcile evidently, but I can't imagine how that could be so.

[trotsky]

5. The RCC believes that homosexuality is "intrinsically disordered."

It believes that "unjust" discrimination against homosexuals is wrong, but does not believe that all discrimination against them is unjust.

Gosh golly gee, what a surprise that inhuman treatment of homosexuals would come out of those teachings!

[Goblinmonger]

8. Well, you see, the Catho-splaining of this is that he wasn't celibate

Which, for some reason I don't understand since I'm not fluent in Catho-splaining, means that his indictments of the RCC's stance are homosexuality are completely null and void and somehow irrelevant.

[trotsky]

9. Wow, I can see why we need an expert on this.

Hard to keep up with all the justifications for bigotry!

[rug]

11. I doubt that.

[Goblinmonger]

12. Well, it's kind of shameful that part of the Catho-splaining is now

to try and defame the person saying something bad about the church. You see, he was having gay sex as a priest so that means, apparently, that he is not a good source about how the church treats gay people. Stunning what one reads on a progressive site.

[rug]

13. It's stnning that yo feel the need to paraphrase.

I do nderstand that it's more comforting to regurgitate a strawman than respond.

Moch more weasely than progressive.

[trotsky]

14. Oh is that the excuse this time?

Wow. Someone's really scraping the bottom of the barrel to distract from the bigotry of his church, it sounds like.

[cleanhippie]

17. It's the same shit.

Just a different pile.

[rug]

10. Then, you should read what Fr. Mycha Judge had to say on the subject, while maintaining his vows.

Charamsa is a self-serving opportunist who would likely still be silent if he wasn't canned.

But then, you have often defended maintaining silence on one's views.

[Curmudgeoness]

16. Hmmmm, interesting.

Not being celibate is ok with the RCC if it is being done to children, but OMG, not with a consenting adult!!!

I base the assumption that the RCC has no problem with diddling children because they did all that was possible to protect the pedophiles. No throwing them out.

[trotsky]

18. Yup, you don't want to think about that too much.

Raping children? Remain a priest, and be transfered to new victims.
Have a consensual relationship with an adult? KICKED THE FUCK OUT.

No wonder some have such impotent rage. I'd go crazy trying to defend such absurdity.

[Warren Stupidity]

27. Rage that would knock a 'u' key right off a keyboard.

[trotsky]

30. ...

[rug]

49. You can't see this, can you?

[rug]

48. Not nearly as the strong as the urge to click the ignore button

And obsess about it regularly.

[Lordquinton]

19. I was gonna post the exact same thing

This inconveint fact kinda undermines the whole "He broke the rules on celibacy" thing, which is another archaic, harmful rule the RCC needs to abandon, and until they do they need to stay out of anything that relates to family.

[Goblinmonger]

20. That they use this canard to defend everything, it is sickening.

We don't hate gays, just gays that have the gay sex outside of marriage. Never mind that you WON'T let them get married. Fucking asshats.

[Lordquinton]

25. Just, you know, because

No actual reason behind it, they just decided less than a hundred years ago to make it that way. There is no solid definitions behind any of it, apparently, nothing behind god, just that he exists. No reason to hate gays, just because they decided to. No reason to hate women, just their way. And questioning any of that hate is bigotry.


And they actually believe all that!

[Warren Stupidity]

6. And the Catho-splain is to ignore every

issue raised and scream "he broked da rulez".
A shameful defense of overt homophobia.

[rug]

7. I await breathlessly your next use of Fr. Charamsa.

In the meantime, why do you think he preached daily at every Mass the doctrine of the RCC until he was bounced?

There are far better critiques of the RCC doctrines on sexuality and far better critics than the one you've latched on to.

Bot, the hell with it, he said something bad about the RCC. Post it!

[Fumesucker]

15. Lends a whole new meaning to the Vatican Rag

You can do any steps you want if

You clear them with the Pontiff <wink>

-Tom Lehrer

The whole town's shaking from the bottom to the top

Everybody wants to do the horizontal bop

-Bob Seger

[Yorktown]

21. Probably more than 20% Catholic priest are gay

In the general population, depending on polls and on the definition, the percentage is between 2 and 5%. So, at a minimum, between 2 an 5% of Roman Catholics must be gay.

But a reason it must be far higher is that Roman Catholic priest is a lifetime, day/night job where one cannot be married. 20%? 30%?

The notion that many Catholic priests are quietly gay is not new. In the 2000 book "The Changing Face of the Priesthood," Rev. Donald B. Cozzens suggested that the priesthood was increasingly becoming a gay profession. Cozzens estimated that as much as 58 percent of priests were gay, and that percentages were even higher for younger priests. His numbers matched previous estimates by sociologists who put the numbers of gay priests between 10 and 60 percent.

Father Gary Meier, a gay, St. Louis-based Catholic clergymen, says there's a wide range of statistics out there on gay priests, but jokes that in his experience, "30 percent are gay, 30 percent are straight, and 30 percent are in denial."
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/07/29/catholic-priests-its-empirical-fact-that-many-clergy-are-gay

[trotsky]

22. That's how the system is kind of set up. It's all implied.

Just check the facts:

It's OK to have a homosexual orientation, but not to act on it. For a homosexual to remain a Catholic in good standing, they must be celibate. Hey, did they mention they have an actual job that requires celibacy? Problem solved!

[Yorktown]

23. Maybe that's why the Roman Catholic Church won't celebrate gay weddings

The roman Catholic priest prefers to keep the pool of uncommitted gay males large and available?

[trotsky]

24. Large and available, you say?

[guillaumeb]

26. And is nothing good accomplished by believers?

Is every person of faith a hypocrite?

By this standard, every word spoken by a US politician regarding peace must be ignored because the US is always at war.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. did you intend this reply to some other post?

It doesn't appear to have anything to do with what I posted.

[guillaumeb]

32. The reply was addressed to the "theme" of some who post here

that there is no good that comes from belief. The comment by the gay priest is merely an opening to attack faith and belief.

[Goblinmonger]

34. So you have no issues with the problem this priest sheds light on?

"Some" here don't seem to want to say that the RCC is a bigoted organization. This guy points it pretty clearly. So we have to pretend that the organization isn't bigoted? We have to preface pointing out the bigotry with, "but they're cool about other things like helping the poor"?

And, most importantly, can you show me some of those posts that say there is "no good that comes from belief"? I'd be interested in seeing that. I had one person in this group on ignore for a month or so, so maybe that's when I missed it. I mean, it seems like you are creating a horrible strawman that you can point at, but I'm sure that's not it.

[guillaumeb]

35. My reply #33 will give you my answer. Thanks.

As to my initial response, when you ask:

And, most importantly, can you show me some of those posts that say there is "no good that comes from belief"? I'd be interested in seeing that. I had one person in this group on ignore for a month or so, so maybe that's when I missed it. I mean, it seems like you are creating a horrible strawman that you can point at, but I'm sure that's not it.

my feeling is that the comments here seem to divide between those who attack the idea of faith and those who use specific incidents to attack a particular faith.

[skepticscott]

37. In other words, you can't point to a single post

to verify your claim. But it's true anyway because, reasons

[guillaumeb]

40. I do not feel the need to look back to find posts that attack all faith.

But regulars at DU are well aware that they exist.

[skepticscott]

42. Typical apologia

What I say is true just because it is, and I have no obligation to back up what I say with evidence. Everyone just KNOWS it's true!

[Goblinmonger]

38. That's cool enough.

I can live, mostly, with "those who use specific incidents to attack a particular faith." I think that's very much different than "no good that comes from belief" which I see tossed around her a lot.

I don't think anybody here has a specific purpose of attacking the RCC, but to many of us, it is quite odd that there is so much love for the RCC and Pope Frank specifically when most of what comes from the RCC in the form of official stances, policy, and doctrine is very anti-women, anti-gay, and anti-progressive with the exception of treatment of the poor. So, yes, I will admit that I do go out of my way to point out the anti-progressive stances of the RCC because it shocks me to see so much support for a guy and an organization that, if it were to be a DU member and would say those things, MIRT would kick them off without a second thought.

[guillaumeb]

41. While I agree with much of what the new Pope says

relating to social justice and climate change, as well as his criticism of capitalism, his speeches on women and sexuality are still anchored in the Middle Ages. As is the Catholic Church.

Your response was a very well written summary of the issue, by the way. It would make for an interesting post by itself.

[trotsky]

31. Hi, guillaumeb.

The Roman Catholic Church officially teaches that homosexuality is "intrinsically disordered" and calls physical love between homosexual individuals "acts of grave depravity."

What effect do you think that will have upon a homosexual individual who grows up in the Catholic Church? Positive, or negative?

[guillaumeb]

33. Hi trotsky,

I worked with a person who was a fervent Catholic. She attended Mass everyday and to all appearances believed in the doctrine.

She was a very difficult person to work with, very hostile and aggressive, especially to subordinates. Some of the people that I represented found her very difficult to work for.

When I worked with her, I also knew (through a mutual acquaintance) that she was in a long term committed relationship with another woman. She had not "come out", so to speak, at work and I never talked about her relationship to anyone at work.

I often wondered if the fact that she was Catholic caused conflict. If a person truly believes in the official Catholic Doctrine, especially as relating to sexual practices, the psychological strain must be significant. Speaking theoretically, if I were a Catholic and homosexual, that which gave me pleasure would also be, in the eyes of the Church, a grave sin.

I was raised a Catholic but left the Church. I try to follow the message of Jesus in my life, but I do not need the Church to follow this message.

[skepticscott]

36. In other words, you refuse to provide a direct answer

Typical apologia. Babble and deflect.

[guillaumeb]

39. When I wrote:

I

often wondered if the fact that she was Catholic caused conflict. If a person truly believes in the official Catholic Doctrine, especially as relating to sexual practices, the psychological strain must be significant. Speaking theoretically, if I were a Catholic and homosexual, that which gave me pleasure would also be, in the eyes of the Church, a grave sin.

I was giving my opinion about the possible conflict between beliefs and life circumstances. I think what I wrote there was fairly clear, but for the nuance challenged at DU, here is a simpler version:

Yes, any sexual activity that take place outside of heterosexual marriage is considered by the Catholic Church to be a sin. And yes, this might and could lead to psychological harm. In my unprofessional opinion, of course.

[skepticscott]

43. Congratulations!

You at least managed to provide a semblance of a direct answer the second time you were challenged to provide it. That's better than most of the Catho-splainers and defenders of Catholic bigotry can manage. Some have YET to give a straight answer to simple and direct questions.

[trotsky]

44. So I'll put you down for "negative," then. Great.

You and I are definitely on the same page as Krzysztof Charamsa. Hopefully you can find the people who are saying that "nothing good (is) accomplished by believers." Good luck!

[guillaumeb]

46. see response #34 for another DU member

who remembers reading the "faith is a bad thing" posts that appear regularly.

[Goblinmonger]

47. whoa, whoa, whoa

You completely misunderstood what I was saying. It likely could have been my phrasing.

I was trying to say that your claim right before that of people using articles to go after a specific faith is much different than your claim the people in here say there is no good coming from belief. Plenty of people throw around the claim that atheists are arguing that no good comes from belief, but I have NEVER seen anything like that in this group. Saying bad things come from a faith is NOT the same as saying no good ever comes from faith.

[guillaumeb]

50. You might be correct here. When you said:

can live, mostly, with "those who use specific incidents to attack a particular faith." I think that's very much different than "no good that comes from belief" which I see tossed around her a lot.

I interpreted that to mean that you also have seen the anti-religion or anti-faith posts at DU. If you are referring to this specific group only that is a different thing from what I was saying. I was speaking of DU as an entity and was not referring to any particular group. But some of the people commenting here have also commented in the AA group.

I hope that clarifies what I was (trying apparently but failing) to communicate. My apologies if you were offended or felt misrepresented.

[trotsky]

51. So now that that's been cleared up...

good luck with your search.

[Iggo]

45. Iggo decries Catholic Church's inhuman treatment of homosexuals.

So there.