Religion
Related: About this forumWill Pastafarians be joining other religions in offering sanctuary for immigrants?
(Xposted from Pastafarians, but reposted here, as I just got blocked from that group for some unexplained reason.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1282505
I sure hope so!
It's the right thing to do!
Religious groups and activists vowed Wednesday to offer refuge to illegal immigrants who are the targets of ongoing federal raids meant to combat a new wave of border-crossing from Central America.
The announcement recalled the sanctuary movement of the 1980s that provided safe haven to several thousand people fleeing civil wars in El Salvador and Guatemala, with churches in Los Angeles, Chicago and other cities sometimes filled with people seeking asylum in the United States.
During a news conference via telephone, a national network of immigrant groups said they are prepared to defy federal authorities who are seeking to apprehend illegal Central American immigrants. Advocates said those immigrants again are fleeing violence in their homelands, this time perpetrated by gangs engaged in drug trafficking and other crimes.
“We feel we are once again living through a nightmare,” said Alison Harrington, pastor of Southside Presbyterian Church in Tucson. “Once again, human lives are at stake.”
snip----------------------
(more at link)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/religious-groups-offer-sanctuary-to-immigrants-targeted-in-ice-raids/2016/01/06/183e5dd6-b416-11e5-a76a-0b5145e8679a_story.html
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pipoman
(16,038 posts)Religion......actual religion....does virtually all non-government aid heavy lifting, the anti-religion zealots only talk shit, they don't actually contribute....
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Pastafarians are some of the most pro religion people out there, some may even say the most. Quite a few work in non-profits and even in other churches, but never let on that they're pastafarians, something about good works for the sake of good works or some such, I think the Angel Hair denomination disagrees though, they let EVERYONE know that when they pass out food at the food bank, the people being served better thank His noodly appendage for being able to eat His noodly appendage, or else they will boil for eternity.
Sadly, many of the bigger religions use the vast majority of their money on building expenses, staffing, and only a tiny sliver on charity, and oftentimes with strings attached, and many times that money is given to them by the government to perform charitable acts, rather than out of their own coffers. Hopefully, one day they will see the Pasta Sauce and follow the example of their brothers and sisters in Fettucini. Ramen.
bvf
(6,604 posts)does its damnedest to keep contraceptives out of AIDS-ravaged regions, denies women their rights, shields child abusers from justice, promotes and profits from mass-delusion (no pun intended), maintains ludicrous, cannibalistic doctrine, and flies jetloads of people into skyscrapers.
For starters.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)And go to the spaghetti hospital...
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)and priest always provide better exorcisms than the spaghetti hospital myself.
And who doesn't want to avail themselves of the cannibalistic services offered by so many religions? Much better than the spaghetti meals with the local FSM chapter, amirite?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)...isn't fucking charity.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)We're talking about common courtesy..you know, biting the hand that feeds you, and all that....
My only beef is with stupid fuckers making ludicrous and false statements about the only people who are willing to lose money to provide services that we all may need. Those fools who can't acknowledge that religious organizations provide enormous amounts of healthcare, and a thousand other kinds of relief for those who need it...
Those most outspokenly wrong about the good done by religious groups in the US just need to put their health where their mouth is.....
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)My only beef is with stupid fuckers making ludicrous and false statements about the only people who are willing to lose money to provide services that we all may need.
You know this is ostensibly laughable, right? Last I checked, religious hospitals bill insurance just like secular, public, and for profit hospitals. If they bill insurance, they generate revenue. To operate at a loss, these hospitals would have to spend more on charity and overheads than they take in from billing. I find that pretty fucking hard to believe, considering all the data I've seen shows charity care as a percentage of gross revenue hovers around 3% for religious non-profit hospitals, making them only marginally more charitable than for-profit hospitals.
The strings attached? All of the procedures any hospital not affiliated with the invisible man in the sky would dispense without batting a fucking eye. You'll have to excuse me if I'm not groveling in appreciation before these not-doctors who, in a be-fucking-fuddling interpretation of medical ethics, ranks the health of the patient as a secondary concern to their personal religious dogma.
Fuck that noise. It's a shitty state of affairs, and I'm not going to keep my fucking mouth shut because "it's better than nothing".
pipoman
(16,038 posts)And you will pay whether you have money or not. Religious nonprofits forgive bills....lots of them..for profits never forgive bills. If it wasn't at 3% it couldn't exist...you do know this, no? The difference is that nonprofits all have healthcare assistance and for prifit doesn’t...they reduce to their lowest reimbursement rate for the lowest ability to pay and that's it.
Hospitals are only a small part, it is residential healthcare that without religious nonprifits there would literally be old people littering the streets.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)of every kind to the poor than any organization. Period.
The increasing hysteria you are displaying is not helping the case you are trying to present.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Public hospitals are the most charitable by far, with about 5% of their gross revenue going towards charity.
Never mind that religious hospitals accept Medicare and Medicaid; meaning a large portion of their revenues actually comes from the taxpayer.
rug
(82,333 posts)JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)Here in this fine Christian nation.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,760 posts)
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Yeah, bullshit.
Seeing as that I am in the biz, so to speak, let me give you some inside information:
The practice of medicine is divided up into an assload of specialities and subspecialties. Some of these specialties have an assload of "downstreams" -- procedures that cost the hospital very little but reimburse very high -- while some have practically none. According to the big Bible of Hospital Administration, you use the downstreams from a lucrative specialty to cover the losses of your more expensive specialties.
On the macro scale, if you own more than one hospital, you use the downstreams from the richer hospitals to cover losses from poorer hospitals.
And if you take a good look at the Catholic Church, you'll see that's exactly what they are doing. They are merging their hospitals under common brands so that money generated from more profitable hospitals covers the losses of the more charitable locations. And at the end of the day, they're turning a fucking profit.
And a good portion of that profit comes from our tax dollars. Which means, pretty much, that it isn't the church being charitable so much as it is the public.
But we already knew that.
If it wasn't at 3% it couldn't exist...you do know this, no?
Public hospitals average about 5%. Secular non-profits average around the same as religious non-profits. The simple fact of the matter is religious health care providers aren't doing anything secular health care providers don't, and measurably less than public-owned institutions.
Again, I'm not so complacent that I'm going roll over in admiration because religious institutions, in the absence of a public alternative, provide care at the bare fucking minimum. If they want to do this job -- if it isn't simply a means to compensate for declining collections, or an excuse to force their asinine reproductive dogma upon the wider public by denying them access to treatment -- then they really ought to do it right.
I would ask why you think private, for-profit institutions don't do this, but seeing as I have personally seen private, for-profit institutions do this, I'm just going to assume this is more bullshit.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)but over here in Europe hospitals aren't usually owned and operated by ignorant, money-grabbing religious bigots
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Why the fuck wouldn't I be talking about healthcare providers in the US? What, do you think Democratic Underground is about, politics in Indonesia?
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)You like the restriction to procedures and drugs that go against their religions principles even when there is no real other option for people living in that area?
pipoman
(16,038 posts)No, I really don't care if every facility doesn't do abortions....if they are willing to run a money losing hospital and provide a needed service they should be able to pick and choose a little.
It doesn't matter a single bit if I like it or not....if I need medical care I will be going to a religious hospital since that is all that is available in most of my state. If I can't pay they will offer me a charity application and my bill will vaporize. Or the nursing home where 54% of the residents are on medicaid which reimburses at around 70% of the actual cost of care in the facility....the rest is paid by the charity of others...religious people who actually do put their money where their mouth is..
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Abortions among other things. So if someone is in your state and wants an abortion or other service that isn't offered because the religious hospitals don't agree with it, what are they supposed to do? What if they are too poor to travel.
But, hey, they should be able to pick and choose. Do they take any government money? Hint: yes.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Put their money where their mouth is and provide these services...you know, the religious groups will still do all of the healthcare heavy lifting...but no, the closest they can come is to demand government fund their charity....
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)And if these hospitals are so bent on not making any money, how were they able to take over health care in your state?
pipoman
(16,038 posts)They didn't take anything.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)that these hospitals aren't making a profit? And being called a non-profit isn't it, e.g. goodwill.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Oh, and I don't have time to teach you IRS code. . ("Nonprofit" = irs eligibility)
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)although there should be a right to have an abortion if a woman chooses. But it is also about pregnancy prevention as well. Most of the religious hospitals refuse to do tubal ligations, even when a woman wants one because she is having her fourth child and can't afford any of them. The religious people who are running these hospitals are making a lot of money doing it, even if they do give a token amount of charity.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)No, I'll let hospitals decide what they do and don't allow/do. These are non profit healthcare facilities which employ people who insist on earning a fair living for what they do....nonprofit religious groups still pay fair salaries or they wouldn't have help...
Tubal ligations? I thought planned parenthood provided solutions to this....
"A token amount to charity"...you should probably investigate that or quit listening to the liars hereabouts....notice they have no competition and no for-profits are buying them up?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)There's a big difference between not providing a service you lack the ability to provide, and not providing a service just because you don't want to.
I don't expect to get an MRI at a hospital that doesn't have a fucking MRI. But I do expect that hospital to refer me to someone who can perform that service.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)Details on non-profit, charity hospitals starts on page 10.
http://www.uta.edu/faculty/story/2311/Misc/2013,2,26,MedicalCostsDemandAndGreed.pdf
Response to pipoman (Reply #18)
Post removed
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)on the charitable contributions and activities of individual "anti-religious zealots"? Please do share them. And while you're at it, include the amount of extra taxes we all have to pay so that churches don't have to.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Doctor's office, or hospital which is operated by an athiest group.....I'll wait....of coarse then we'll compile the numbers for religious nonprofit healthcare organizations.....certainly you don't deny that nonprofit religious healthcare providers are the largest non government group of providers in the US? If you are in the US you are probably within a mile or two of a nonprofit religious healtcare facility....
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Like, at all?
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)And then we can talk about how these tax exempt, charitable organizations have amassed ehough wealth that they can take over the entire healthcare system in a state(s)
pipoman
(16,038 posts)And they run healthcare in areas without enough population to be profitable which is most of my state.
How about if you have something to say, fucking say it?
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)May as well just admit to making stuff up. Meanwhile a quick search here will turn up several threads on the issue of these non-taxed charitable organizations amassing enough wealth to buy out healthcare in several states.
And we're not talking whatever state you are imagining, California and Washington are two states that are loosing secular care to the RCC, who then enforce their doctrine and cause suffering and death in the process.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)How's that privilege working out for ya?
pipoman
(16,038 posts)The healthcare system is broken and millions and millions of people wouldn't have healthcare without religious nonprofits.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)And care to explain how religions non-profirs have been able to ass enough wealth to buyout entire healthcare systems in some of the richest states?
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)What is it with theists that refuse to answer questions?
Response to Lordquinton (Reply #46)
Post removed
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)You keep talking up how great religious hospitals are, refuse to put up any facts, and are openly hostile to anyone who questions you.
So do you have any answer yet? Any supporting facts? Anything at all?
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,760 posts)
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Oh, that's always disappointing.
Tace
(6,800 posts)My mom died in a Masonic nursing home a few years ago in Shelbyville, Kentucky. It was a very nice place, for a nursing home.
Masons are considered a fraternal organization rather than a religion.
I'm not trying to counter your basic supposition. I've made a similar point about oil companies, that they do what they do because churches wouldn't.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)to anything I said, and are just trying to deflect from your miserable failure with bullshit red herrings.
Try again. And don't waste my fucking time if you can't respond directly to what I asked.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)Get a life.
Response to pipoman (Reply #47)
Post removed
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)LOL, you are so important...you rule the DU
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=220889
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This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
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Nothing but nasty, juvenile snark. This poster has had nothing but for the whole thread.
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Explanation: Pipo needs to settle down. Not surprised to see he or she is losing it after the profanity-filled ranting he or she has posted all through this thread. And, I happen to love me some good profanity, but it really can be overdone.
To be clear, though, this hide vote is based on the clear violation of TOS in the post at hand.
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That said, it's kind of hard to tell who's the adult in this back-and-forth. It might be best if they continued this stuff off line.
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goldent
(1,582 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Some of the most extreme Pastafarians believe the Flying Spaghetti Monster (pbuh) wants the nations borders to be like a sieve, nay, even like a cheese grater, for our we not all the same under the protection of Her noodle appendage?
The other extreme thinks the US has been specially blessed by FSM's Pasta Sauce, and that as first among nations, we must keep a pure, starch free population, or be boiled for our sins, and they believe our borders should be like that of meatballs thoroughly drenched in meat sauce, so that only the most zesty of seasoning may get through to enrich the plate of the nation.
And the vast majority are in between, and FSM looks on, touching all with his infinite noodle appendages, Ramen.
Cartoonist
(7,316 posts)That's what I thought.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Just curious.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)That's the "religion" you hate the most, right? What does it do to your argument if gun owners take in refugees?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Are all religions doing this? If not, why are you only singling out Pastafarians?
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/07/31/atheists-pastafarians-make-news-for-our-generosity/
rug
(82,333 posts)"Guys holding fish" are in fifth place.
"FSM", 23rd place.
A remarkable surge by Guys Holding Fish.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)
I've heard that satire is effective in religious practice.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)"Satire is intended to do more than just entertain; it tries to improve humanity and its institutions. One would think this is a worthy goal of any religion."
Do you think satire can be a tool to improve humanity and its institutions?
Do you think improving humanity and its institutions is a worthy goal of a religion?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Maybe use a different gun?