Religion
Related: About this forumIn Defense of Charlie Hebdo‘s Alan Kurdi Cartoon
January 15, 2016
by Hemant Mehta
After last years Charlie Hebdo massacre, there were far too many people (including some liberals) refusing to join in the Je suis Charlie chorus because they said the magazine published too many racist, sexist cartoons. In a way, the critics were suggesting that the cartoonists had, at least to some extent, brought the attacks upon themselves.
Were seeing a bit of that this week with a cartoon drawn by the magazines Laurent Sourisseau (Riss). It features Alan Kurdi, the refugee child who was famously found dead, face-down in water last year as his family tried to escape Syria.
The caption for the cartoon basically asks what Kurdi would have become if he had grown up. The answer? One of the people who allegedly sexually assaulted women in Cologne, Germany:
- snip -
Its not the first time Charlie Hebdo has published a cartoon like this. When the massacre happened last year, people pointed to this cover as an example of its racist point of view:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2016/01/15/in-defense-of-charlie-hebdos-alan-kurdi-cartoon/
Nice try, Hemant, but this stuff is indefensible.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)think about what it would take to accept a baby shower after being allowed to enter into the country and then coming back at a Christmas party (that probably was not a coincidence either) and then staring the people who tried to help you and shooting them in the face. What was their crime - living?
Why should the world change their core values of freedom of thought and freedom of expression because the very refugees, migrants, and immigrants will kill to protect their way of thinking?
rug
(82,333 posts)Freedom of expression includes the right to call crap, crap.
Those cartoons, and their defense, are crap.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)I sure hope that they don't do any Tamir Rice or Trayvon Martin cartoons.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Makes Bill OReilly look sane! I heard they had to cancel his show on Comedy Central he was such a hateful bigot.
rug
(82,333 posts)and black pregnant women missing teeth.
Colbert has as much in common with Charlie Hebdo as Andrew Dice Clay has in common with Oscar Wilde.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Would like a word with you...
And Colbert made plenty of racist jokes, it was his character.
Charlie Hebdo is cruder satire, and people like satire of different kinds, but it is satire. Quite a few people didn't understand Colbert was practicing satire, and if you don't know the language or American culture, then you really won't get it.
rug
(82,333 posts)Now put p the entire segment from November 3, 2005.
When you're done with that, put up his Sambo routine.
Do you consider this satire?
Do you defend it as well?
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Personally, I'm surprised you would defend a racist, but then, not really.
Maybe you can look into the Ching Chong ding dong foundation of 2014 while defending a racist.
rug
(82,333 posts)Personally, I'm surprised you would call Colbert a racist, but then, not really. He is Catholic, after all, and I know how you feel about Catholics. You mst think he's misogynist and homophobic as well.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Psst, I don't think Colbert is racist, rather, I was pointing out how you demanded context of a known satirical figure when I pointed out something he did would usually be considered offensive without understanding American politics and culture, and even then, could still be interpreted as offensive, even in the guise of comedy, to point out your hypocrisy for Hebdo, and then took on your role as the offended. Guess I did your role too well.
rug
(82,333 posts)That 25 second clip you posted, in an attempt to excuse or deflect from these cartoons, utterly lacks context. The cartoons don't.
The cartoon lacks a lot of context, first, it wasn't shown as part of the series with the heading, next, it's aimed at a small reader base that has certain cultural understandings of humor we don't, next, it's in a different language, next, we don't know the full political climate inf France...
Will you post the entire issue of Charlie Hebdo and give me a rundown on French culture, current French politics, the history of French humor, the intended audience of Hebdo, it's history as a satirical magazine, etc.?
The post is t toes use or deflect, it's an analogy, one that you denied existed, but does exist. Considering you haven't addressed that, I don't think you want to.
rug
(82,333 posts)As I said, it was a valiant but failed defense.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)but failed to demonstrate.
rug
(82,333 posts)bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)not hypersensitive little children who need safe spaces.
rug
(82,333 posts)xenophobic shit.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)the French use satire to criticize certain positions? And maybe satire is one of the most difficult things to understand when coming from a different culture and language?
The magazine isn't really criticizing right wing positions, it's just a cover to be xenophobic? Colbert really played the long con then.
rug
(82,333 posts)Ethnic stereotypes are one of the most universally grasped images and the intent is just as easy to grasp.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Are one of the most commonly used pieces for satire and comedy. The intent is just as easy to grasp? Apparently not for you.
rug
(82,333 posts)It must be easy to overlook the obvious when you're playing defense.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)They're satirizing the worst fears of the French Right as a result of the German sexual assaults by migrants. I'm guessing the French Right is milking it for all its worth, but then, I'm sure it's a bit difficult to understand if you don't even know what the current political climate is in a country.
If Colbert were still on the air, I can definitely see him doing a bit where he expresses increasing fear over the migrants coming, and aping some of what the Republican candidates said, and taking it further, because that's satire, and someone not familiar with our politics or comedy or language even would think he must be some racist bigot, and he isn't even as crude as Hebdo.
rug
(82,333 posts)do you understand the need for cultural context to get satire? If not, then just imagine that Hebdo is a magazine for right wing racists.
rug
(82,333 posts)As opposed to embracing the worst stereotypes of the anti-Semitic right.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)And maybe exaggerated drawings are not off-limits forever because of past racist propaganda? Just a thought, I think I see a lot of it each day right here even, something something toon threads?
rug
(82,333 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Democratic underground is a liberal safe space.
LeftishBrit
(41,202 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Or at least, that they should have expected a punch from him. And not even for satire of xenophobia, but just making fun of religion in general.
LeftishBrit
(41,202 posts)It is the xenophobia, and mockery of a dead child, that is disgusting. Draw cartoons of Mohammed, or of Abraham and Moses (many Orthodox Jews don't approve of images either), or photograph a crucifix in urine (the Serrano 'Piss Christ' controversy), all you wish; but mockery of a tragedy involving a child, just because the child was of a different religious background is revolting, and reminds me of the sort of things anti-Semites say about Jews, or racists about non-whites.
Nonetheless, such actions may deserve harsh criticism and boycotting, but NEVER physical violence.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)was to mock a dead child.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)American righties believe
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Comments supporting it earn the same.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Crude cartoons? Not really a fan of those either. But find them much preferable to killing people for being offensive, and since some people like them and, unlike religious extremism, they hurt nobody, I have no interest in curtailing their availability any more than I do other entertainment that others enjoy and I don't. It's easy to ignore such trivialities after all. Would it were as easy to ignore those who believe insults to religious ideas deserve death.
But then again that's one of the main difference between crude cartoons and religioius extremism I guess. Only the last one really matters to people who aren't involved. Or should at any rate.
rug
(82,333 posts)If you think calling this shit, shit, is the equivalent of killing people, your post does not even require ridicule.
Jim__
(14,058 posts)But heres what those critics dont understand: The joke isnt about the boy. Its not about refugees. Its not about Muslims.
Its a criticism of bigots like Donald Trump and other conservatives in the U.S. who think we should close off the borders to all refugees because theyre rapists or terrorists.
Yes, offensive. Extremely offensive.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Jim__
(14,058 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)if you don't understand satire.
I'm sure you thought Colbert was a plague on humanity too
rug
(82,333 posts)Otherwise, it's quite defensible.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)I don't identify the with a belief system that is explicitly bigoted, unfortunately, most of the world does, and it's so normal that they often criticize bigotry while identifying with and supporting it! Oh, the privilege of the religious.
rug
(82,333 posts)And I know your posts. So far, in your frenetic defense of these shitty cartoons, you've invoked anti-Catholicism and played the "religious privilege" card. I give you three more posts before you mention pedophilia and beheadings. Not that any of that will alter these cartoons one whit.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Anti-Catholicism? I wonder if it's anti-Catholicism to think belief systems that consider homosexuals to be disordered are shitty. I certainly hope so.
rug
(82,333 posts)And you would never be one to suggest Catholics who belong to what you consider a bigoted organization like the RCC might be bigots, would you?
How could I suggest that people that identify with an explicitly bigoted institution be bigots? Religious privilege solves that straightaway! Look rug, it's normal to identify with bigoted religions while denouncing bigotry in our society and not having to answer for said contradiction. And describing it as religious privilege? Well, you're right, that's just a useful deflection to reality. What we need are useful deflections to the privileged being victims of meanies not liking their belief system, one that religious privilege clearly states you cannot criticize! Oh, there I go using that word again.
rug
(82,333 posts)Maybe Catholics and members of other religions are privileged bigots.
Or, maybe you're woefully wrong.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)I think Hebdo's brand of satire and caricature are often intentionally inflammatory, so to try and take it out of context is par for the course for the perpetually offended.
And I gotta say, drawing inflammatory satire is several magnitudes less offensive than heading an organization that says homosexuals are fundamentally disordered, or that advocates against contraception in places with AIDS. When bigotry and hatred, much of it religiously inspired, is so normal and inoffensive to so many, even virtuous, I think inflammatory satire is awesome, IMHO.
rug
(82,333 posts)Just browse through Der Sturmer while repeating it.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)As a member of the Catholic Church.
rug
(82,333 posts)No wonder you think Colbert is a racist.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)with the spread of anti-semitism in Europe. I think you mean to say "Lol, there my church goes, whoops!"
rug
(82,333 posts)mwrguy
(3,245 posts)cheapdate
(3,811 posts)Archie Bunker did the same in the 1970s.
This cartoon is extreme and it uses the death of an actual child. It's horrible.