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rug

(82,333 posts)
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 11:45 AM Jan 2016

Why humans find it hard to do away with religion

The new atheists decry religion as a poisonous set of lies. But what if a belief in the supernatural is natural?



God Is Watching You: How the Fear of God Makes Us Human by Dominic Johnson is published by Oxford University Press (304pp, £18.99)

20 January 2016
By John Gray

An American scientist visiting the home of Niels Bohr, the Nobel Prize-winning Danish physicist and refugee from Nazism who was a leading figure in the Manhattan Project, which produced the atomic bomb, was surprised to discover a horseshoe hanging over Bohr’s desk: “Surely you don’t believe the horseshoe will bring you good luck, Professor Bohr?” he asked. “After all, as a scientist . . .”

Bohr laughed. “I believe no such thing, my good friend. Not at all. I am scarcely likely to believe such foolish nonsense. However, I am told that a horseshoe will bring one good luck whether you believe it or not.”

Dominic Johnson, who tells this story, acknowledges that Bohr might have been joking. But the physicist’s response captured an important truth. Human beings never cease looking for a pattern in events that transcends the workings of cause and effect. No matter how much they may think their view of the world has been shaped by science, they cannot avoid thinking and acting as if their lives are subject to some kind of non-human oversight. As Johnson puts it, “Humans the world over find themselves, consciously or subconsciously, believing that we live in a just world or a moral universe, where people are supposed to get what they deserve. Our brains are wired such that we cannot help but search for meaning in the randomness of life.”

An evolutionary biologist trained at Oxford who also holds a doctorate in political science, Johnson believes that the need to find a more-than-natural meaning in natural events is universal – “a ubiquitous phenomenon of human nature” – and performs a vital role in maintaining order in society. Extending far beyond cultures shaped by monotheism, it “spans cultures across the globe and every historical period, from indigenous tribal societies . . . to modern world religions – and includes atheists, too”.

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2016/01/why-humans-find-it-hard-do-away-religion

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MisterP

(23,730 posts)
2. they say it's either doomed to disappear in 15 years (every 15 years) or vaguely insist that it's
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 03:19 PM
Jan 2016

evolved (and thus Panglossian)

Jim__

(14,063 posts)
3. Excellent review!
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 03:58 PM
Jan 2016

It is somewhat surprising that some people who claim to trust science don't seem to seriously consider that religion may be a selected trait - i.e. advantageous. I know Dawkins mentions this possibility in The God Delusion but he doesn't give it careful consideration.

And I didn't realize that horseshoes bring good luck even if you don't believe in them - I guess I'll have to start carrying mine again.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
5. "We are all agreed that your theory is crazy.
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 07:52 PM
Jan 2016

The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct." - Niels Bohr to Wolfgang Pauli t Colmbia University, 1958.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
4. Sigh...
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 06:32 PM
Jan 2016
The new atheists decry religion as a poisonous set of lies. But what if a belief in the supernatural is natural?


Lots of things are natural. If you think that makes them good for you then by all means, enjoy your all natural arsenic salad dressing.

In this particular case, if we're talking about the naturally evolved pattern recognition tendencies in humans and how they can lead to belief in supernatural causation of events... as far as an argument goes it's old news.

Yes, pattern recognition is beneficial as a generalized capability.

No, pattern recognition being a useful trait in general does not validate all the specific patterns the brain digs up out of often random and uncorrelated data... such as all the ones that lead people to think some magical divine intervention happened because their brain pieced together connections that didn't exist.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
6. "These 'new atheists' are simple souls."
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 08:15 PM
Jan 2016

It is not simple pattern recognition, discerning a pair of eyes staring from tall grass. There is no meaning in that beyond becoming lunch.

Johnson's conclusion is that "No matter how much they may think their view of the world has been shaped by science, they cannot avoid thinking and acting as if their lives are subject to some kind of . . . . Our brains are wired such that we cannot help but search for meaning in the randomness of life.”

This is the alternative: "This may be why we are so anxious to discern a pattern in the drift of events. If there is none, our future will depend largely on chance – a dispiriting prospect."

You can substitute the laws of physics for chance or for "non-human oversight" but it does not supply the need for meaning, only predictability.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
7. Please don't project...
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 09:38 PM
Jan 2016

...your own simplistic understanding of what pattern recognition in the brain encompasses on others. It goes far beyond "recognizing a pair of eyes in the grass". It is all the processes that draw connections between different data points looking for correlations.

And it is well understood that those processes, useful as they are to possess, OFTEN spit out incorrect results.


"Our brains are wired such that we cannot help but search for meaning in the randomness of life."


And as already pointed out to you, possessing the natural wiring to do so does not in any way validate the outcomes people generate from that process. This observation that that natural wiring exists, far from being an argument detrimental to the new atheists position, *reinforces* it. It is a perfectly natural explanation for why people constantly dream up crazy ridiculous *incorrect* things to explain the world around them.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
8. Lol, "simplistic understanding".
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 09:44 PM
Jan 2016

Tell me, do you think this book is about pattern recognition or about a human need for meaning?

I kept the question simple. Take your time.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
9. Yes, simplistic, which you just demonstrated again.
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 04:08 PM
Jan 2016

The specific search for meaning this book is talking about is the particular type of meaning ascribed to a deity existing. The type that has anything to do with the entire theism/atheism debate. An external imposition of meaning.

And the search for any such deity-provided meaning is by definition an analysis of cause and effect and the relations of things in the world you live in. A process which heavily utilizes PATTERN RECOGNITION.

Sheesh.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
10. Ah, disagreement with you equates to simplistic thinking.
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 06:58 PM
Jan 2016

Actually, he is referring to "some kind of non-human oversight" which is not necessarily a deity at all.

Discussing pattern recognition, heavily used or not, does not make the central thesis pattern recognition at all.

I fear you've missed the point. Typing in all caps will not help you find it.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
11. No, your earlier demonstrated inability to grasp...
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 07:17 PM
Jan 2016

...that there is more to pattern recognition that "seeing eyes in the grass" equates to a simplistic understanding of the concept. Which you seem unable to move past.

 

gcomeau

(5,764 posts)
15. If you think you see others perhaps...
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 07:31 PM
Jan 2016

...you should be mindful of how *very bad* the human brain is at discerning false pattern from real ones. As a religious person there is already evidence you are prone to falling victim to that.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
16. Other patterns I see are denial, inability to tolarate dissent and a quicknoess to resort to insult
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 07:36 PM
Jan 2016

to preserve your position.

As you say, I could be wrong.

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