Question from an Agnostic regarding natural disasters

[Funtatlaguy]

Just watching all of the reactions to Irma.
Lots of thanking God for things not being worse.
Being "blessed" that only their homes were "taken" and nothing more.

As a very rational and questioning person, I just have to ask.
Why is there never any anger or disappointment that something bad happened to them in the first place. So, they held prayer circles for the storm to miss them. Then, it hits them.

But, from their perspective, Gods answer to that prayer was no.
But, Gods answer to their prayers to keep them safe was yes?
So, it's still all good with God?

God is always blameless for anything bad that happens that he could have prevented?
But, God is always praiseworthy for anything bad that did not happen?
Seems like having your cake and eating it too from a logical, rational, thinking perspective.

Please show me where I'm wrong just on the logic.
Don't want to hear about inadequate levels of faith and "everything happening for a reason" that humans are not supposed or able to comprehend.

[Alpeduez21]

1. Logic can only come to two conclusions

with regards to God.

Either he/she is an asshole

or he/she doesn't exist.

[mehrrh]

18. Does not reconcile

I agree.

[guillaumeb]

36. Human logic, with human limitations.

[Voltaire2]

49. sure because we just can't comprehend how a loving intercessionary god deems dead children to be

part of the plan, us being dimwitted humans.

I dunno, do your really believe what you wrote?

[guillaumeb]

57. I might ask the same of you.

But I will not.

[Voltaire2]

71. I don't have your problem.

I think the idea of an intercessionary god is ludicrous and childish. There is no plan. Shit happens. Good shit, bad shit, neutral shit. There is no intention to any of it.

[beam me up scottie]

56. Is there another kind of logic?

Is there such a thing as supernatural logic and how does it differ from the human kind?

[guillaumeb]

58. Do you assume that human intelligence and logic are without limitations? eom

[beam me up scottie]

61. Nice try, but it doesn't answer my question about logic.

Human logic, with human limitations.

What other kind of logic are you referring to?

Is supernatural logic like known unknowns?

"as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know."

[guillaumeb]

63. If sentient life exists on other planets, there could be many types of logic.

[beam me up scottie]

64. So you must have access to these different types of logic.

Since you compared them to human logic which you found lacking:

Human logic, with human limitations

[guillaumeb]

65. Note the qualifiers "if" and "could".

And,

Logic Chopping

(also known as: quibbling, nit-picking, smokescreen, splitting-hairs, trivial objections)

Description: Using the technical tools of logic in an unhelpful and pedantic manner by focusing on trivial details instead of directly addressing the main issue in dispute. Irrelevant over precision.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/120/Logic-Chopping

Thank you for the reference.

[beam me up scottie]

66. But you said human logic was insufficient so you must have had another kind for comparison.

And since the subject is your original statement it's not pedantic to ask for clarification. Nice try though, keep working at it!

Now in your opinion, what kind of logic is superior to humans'?

Human logic, with human limitations

[guillaumeb]

67. Again: Human logic, with human limitations.

Unless one assumes that humans are the only sentient species in the universe. Are you basing that assumption on the Biblical account of creation, perhaps?

[beam me up scottie]

68. But you made a definitive statement - you said HUMAN logic was lacking.

How could you possibly know that if you didn't have another kind for comparison?

I don't believe in intelligent design, sorry - creationism is as illogical as thinking a loving God would give children cancer when he could easily spare them suffering.

Now back to those other kinds of logic, which ones were you referring to specifically?

[guillaumeb]

69. Not what I actually said, but you are free to reframe as you see the need.

Reread my actual response.

[beam me up scottie]

70. Nope, that's what you said.

Human logic, with human limitations.

You claimed that humans are incapable of understanding God because our logic is insufficient. If you don't have any other kind for comparison then your explanation doesn't make sense.

[trotsky]

72. Duh, bmus.

Human logic is insufficient because it cannot be used to support his beliefs. OBVIOUSLY that means the logic is faulty, because there's no way his beliefs are wrong. Logically speaking, of course.

[beam me up scottie]

73. Of course!

[snooper2]

75. you are correct, but I understand our great God's logic

He is using weather to perform population control. He can only have so many humans being murderous assholes so this is one of the few options available from our Lord.

Ironically, He is also very, very slowly making the planet Earth spin ever so slightly faster. As the planet rotates faster it is actually expanding at the Equator making more land mass for humans to live. Funny man our God is.


Let me know what else you would like to know!

[Voltaire2]

48. there is at least a third option

the alleged gods initiated the universe via <mumble-splat> but otherwise are mere spectators, or perhaps consumed by the process of initiation.

That is, the godlets are incapable of interceding and thus bear no responsibility for the shit that transpires. Of course such diminished deities hardly qualify as GODs in the abrahamic sense, but do escape assholity.

[Trueblue Texan]

2. I agree, but on the other hand...

...people tend to blame god too, as though the things that happen to them don't have anything to do with their own choices, such as global warming and storms. In other words, they believe they are powerless in all areas.

[marylandblue]

4. They tend to believe they are powerless only in selected areas

like weather, disease accidents etc. They don't believe they are powerless to go to the drugstore. Unless they get into an accident on the way, then God saved them, not their seatbelt.

[markbark]

3. You're trying to reconcile faith with logic/reason

....along that path lies madness.

The faithful will come up with logic more tortured than Pavarotti at a Green Day concert to keep from admitting that their most deeply held beliefs were just some shit made up by a tribe of itinerant goat rapers from 3000 years ago who wondered where rain came from and where the sun went at night.

[docgee]

6. +1 for 'ignorant goat rapers' :)

[PJMcK]

76. How do you know it wasn't consensual?

(wink)

[mehrrh]

19. Historical

I agree -- after thousands of years, are humans "hard-wired" to believe despite all evidence to the contrary?

[The Mouth]

25. Best post I have read in months, maybe years

[thesquanderer]

26. If it could be proven through logic, they would not have to call it faith.

Faith literally means believing something even though it's impossible to prove its truth.

[chaplain_M]

42. Or, as Mark Twain put it...

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

[Funtatlaguy]

28. Itinerant goat rapers

🤔🙀🙏

[ehrnst]

5. Absolute unquestioning faith that the authority figure is right, & he only wants what's best for us

It doesn't matter if he contradicts himself - that's only more evidence that we don't understand as much as he does.

Any action he takes elicits praise from his followers, because his will is the definition of what is best for all.

He will not be mocked, and questioning is evidence you are corrupt.

Dissent from his word is also corruption, and if everyone just does as he says, all will be made right.

Anything that is not right is the result of not abiding by his will.


(You will see this in many leaders who appeal to those who don't have a religion to give them an authority figure to "protect" them.)

[chia]

8. "questioning is evidence you are corrupt"

Yes... agree completely, based on years of interacting with people who will say exactly that, modified by whether you're outside the fold (unregenerate) or inside the fold (you were never really saved).

If prayers aren't answered as requested it's explained as God knowing whats best for the one praying, so it always settles out as either thanks for a yes, or 'thy will be done' for a no. Either way, the universe is explained. 'God is in control' provides comfort for those facing the forces of nature - so much easier to believe there's someone up there at the celestial control panel.

It's taken decades to question what I was taught as a child. I didn't understand the force of cultural religion.

[BobsYourUncle]

16. Reusable text...

as an argument against any tyrant.

[spike91nz]

7. Religion

Religion had to invent the devil to explain the failures of god. Otherwise, everybody stops listening to the shaman conman. It is indicative of an abused child's mentality that god the father is good, he only hurts us for our own good or because we provoked him by questioning his irrationality.

Religions escape empirical judgement of their failure through the progressive purging toward purity. Much like capitalism, it only fails because of a lack complete commitment to the purist form of the ideology.

Rationality and empiricism are rejected as an initial condition of acceptance of belief based upon a subjective experience of a transformative passion confirming blind faith in an idea that is too irrational and embarrassing to ever admit having taken to be serious: a ritual that elevates the subjective passions over reasoning. It is, for the believer, better to maintain a veracity of the delusion than admit one was so thoroughly deluded.

[ehrnst]

9. And we see the same tactics in politics. (nt)

[ewagner]

15. Interesting intersection between Capitalism and Religion...

You correctly stated:" Much like capitalism, it only fails because of a lack complete commitment to the purist form of the ideology."

I've always found it interesting that biblical references are used to justify some of the worst abuses of capitalism....

[lutherj]

10. To quote Epicurus:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

[notKeith]

11. I recognize your post as rhetorical.

You don't really want an explanation because you're aware it's all bullshit. You're just sounding off.

"I believe the Bible is true."
"Why?"
"Because it tells me it's true."

[Funtatlaguy]

12. Not exactly.

I was raised in the church.
Saved, baptized, etc.
Have grown up in a staunchly Christian culture.
There is much to admire.
Do unto others as ......great policy to follow.

I love the idea of an afterlife. Who wouldn't?
And, there are things in the world that are difficult to assign to science.
There are many people who have "died" and come back to life telling peaceful feelings of what they temporarily experienced. I find their stories very intriguing.

That's why I'm an Agnostic and not an Atheist, I guess.

[thesquanderer]

24. Even the existence of an afterlife would not be proof of a God. (n/t)

[Voltaire2]

50. there are no people who have actually died and come back to life.

You probably are referring to "near death experiences", in which case the adjective "near" is rather critical. Also attempts to verify some of the details, like OOBE, have been miserable failures.

[barbtries]

13. you're not wrong.

religion is not logical. how can a church be the only way to heaven, and there be so many of them? not to mention all the myriad different religions. are they all right? are they all wrong? (I tend toward the latter) wasn't it Thoreau who said religion is the opiate of the masses?

here's my story. my daughter was killed. i went to counseling at a group of homicide survivors and one day, a family came in whose twin boys had been shot and both survived. "god wasn't ready for them" "praise the lord"

i just sat there because i guess i figured they all needed that. but what does that say for the children of everyone else in the room that day? where was god for our kids?

it's RANDOM. excepting the cases where the killer knew and targeted the victim (this was in LA 2001-2002), virtually all of the bereaved parents in that room had lost children to random violence. my daughter was run over by an angry drunk, but pretty much all the rest of the loved ones in that room, their children were shot to death.

there was no god saving those young men. they had the BAD luck to be in a place where bullets were flying, and the GOOD luck to survive.

you say you're agnostic. i say i'm a spiritual humanist, or atheist for short. i just plain don't believe in any god that gives a rat's ass about me personally. when it comes to natural disasters, even more so. they kill people and they spare others, i do not believe for a split second that there's a god controlling that.

[Funtatlaguy]

14. Very good points.

First, hate that you had such a terrible loss.
Second, it's hard to disagree with anything you say.

And, another biggie, is the so called second coming.
If God is waiting to see just how bad things can get here on earth, wouldn't Trumps election be the final straw?

[barbtries]

31. i don't know how bad it can get first.

we still have it better than a lot of people on this planet.

[kentuck]

17. It is easier to assume that God is in control rather than that no one is in control.

Perhaps God doesn't want to be in your exalted position?

Maybe we are on our own?

God knows what.

[Funtatlaguy]

21. I love your posts

You and Nance Greggs are prob my two favorites to read.

[Mr. Evil]

20. Proof positive that there's no god.

We have the Kardashians.

[kentuck]

22. God has given man free will.

Man can do with it what he wants. But, we should not assume there is no price to pay.

The catastrophe that has swept across the islands to our shores makes one question the premise of both positions.

[gilligan]

23. Prayer

The thing with prayers and God's response is the believer
Cannot lose. Because you get 3 chances.
Yes
No
And wait.

[tclambert]

27. Maybe God is like Loki, the god of mischief, or the Egyptian god, Set, god of chaos.

And they're just looking to have a good time. Humans are just playthings for their games.

Like when Loki said to Set, "Hey, bro, what if we, like, made Donald Trump . . . wait for it . . . President of the United States. Can you imagine how screwed up the world would get then?"

And Set said, "Chaos galore! I love it. Just let me run it by the Russian god of corruption, Putin."

[Funtatlaguy]

30. Would explain much

Like why do men have breasts.

[Honeycombe8]

29. You are right, IMO. By father is an evangelist.

I was househunting the past year and not having luck. Many problems and issues. My Dad throughout was saying, "I'm praying for you. Somewhere there's a house with your name on it. God will answer."

After a year, he said that again, so I told him that I have received "God's answer." His answer is obviously that there is no house like I want with my name on it. He say, "Oh, noooooo. You just haven't found it yet."

So the implication is...if God doesn't send me a house, it's my fault. I didn't look hard enough, didn't answer his call, or my actions in the past have deemed me unworthy of God favoring me with a desirable house.

I call it being unlucky, trying to buy at one of the worst times possible in the real estate market, and not being a good negotiator and decider.

The reliance on God is illogical, for the reasons you state. If something good happens, it's God answering prayers! If something bad happens, ignore the fact that the prayers weren't answered (or something disastrous WAS the answer), and focus on "God will make things right in the end!"

[samnsara]

32. its that internal-external locus of control thing

[guillaumeb]

33. Faith is belief in the abscence of proof.

Faith does not demand proof.
Faith does not require proof.
Faith is not science.

If you believe that natural disasters happen, thus the word natural in the phrase, there is no blame, there is simply the working of the universe and the weather on this planet.

[Act_of_Reparation]

34. No one was challenged to prove their faith.

They were challenged to defend the rationality of their faith.

Of course, you could argue faith is irrational. In which case, I doubt anyone would object.

[guillaumeb]

35. Faith is not based on proving anything.

Science demands proof, faith does not.
So we have the old argument of demanding that faith conform to the demands of science.

Many here also have an unprovable faith in their country.

[Act_of_Reparation]

40. Golf is not based on butterscotch.

Which is every bit as irrelevant to the OP your screed about science and faith. Maybe next time try reading.

[guillaumeb]

41. Your agenda is showing.

Again.

[Act_of_Reparation]

45. Yes, my agenda...

...is to affect the downfall of religion by tooling around an internet backwater trying to explain the difference between science and logic to people who clearly understand neither. You've really sussed me out. There goes my nefarious plan.

[marylandblue]

43. Different kind of faith

Faith in God is believing He exists without evidence. But we don't need that kind of faith in country, we know the United States exists.

[guillaumeb]

44. But there is a type of faith in the stated purposes and ideals of the country.

[marylandblue]

47. Yes, but that has evidence to back it up

We can see how well the country acheives its goals over time and make changes if it doesn't work out. The equivalent faith for Christianity would be faith in the Christian community or individuals to live a Christ-like life. We can tell if someone is acting Christ-like or not without believing in Christ.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. Oh, so you DO understand even though you pretend not to.

You DO see how for-certain knowledge of a thing doesn't abrogate the application of FAITH to it, in the sense of allegiance or approval, or endorsement, or confidence in it's future behavior or intent.

Quelle surprise you do in fact get it after all.

So at the end of the day you could in fact see how if people did know for certain your god truly existed, it wouldn't remove the need or space for the application of FAITH to said known god.

Fascinating.

[trotsky]

55. He uses equivocation when it benefits his argument, of course. n/t

[Voltaire2]

51. I know you've told this before, but using equivocation to argue a point is fallacious.

Useless, but here it is again:

Equivocation
The fallacy of equivocation occurs when a key term or phrase in an argument is used in an ambiguous way, with one meaning in one portion of the argument and then another meaning in another portion of the argument.

http://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Equivocation.html

[Lordquinton]

59. Except the country actually exists

And it's a different definition of faith that you're using to describe between the first and last paragraph.

[guillaumeb]

62. When you say that "the country already exists",

you are describing a social construct. The country only exists in that context. The idea of a country defines what the country is, and the validity and composition of the idea varies. So you demonstrate a belief in this idea.

[Lordquinton]

74. Yes, it's a social construct

that we all mutually agree upon where we construct physical borders and cultures and languages evolve based upon mutually agreed upon borders. There is no mystically endowed creator that grants power, it's agreed upon. Faith is not required.

[MineralMan]

37. Religious belief has a certain logic to it as does religious faith, but

since the initial premise is wrong, everything reasoned from that is also wrong.

What initial premise? That an all-powerful supernatural deity exists and that everything is that deity's will.

If that is false, then everything after that is also false, because it is based on a false premise.

I don't believe that any such deity exists, so I don't use that type of logic. When bad stuff happens, it's because bad stuff happens. I don't need a reason for bad stuff happening. It just does.

[Plucketeer]

38. The folks across the street from us

While the whole crew were dysfunctional ass holes, they had plenty of money, nicest home in the subdivision, AND.... always painted "Happy Birthday Jesus!" on their windows during December. A couple of weeks ago, God was angry (I'm guessing) with the woman of the house. He was incensed that she'd raised her son to be a useless lout. So after a lot of heated yelling and cursing, God told the husband to deal with what he (God) obviously couldn't. (Thank God for that 2nd amendment!) Imagine how that 9MM felt - being able (finally) to mete out justice as it was designed to do.
Sonny boy succumbed to the gun's function with a hole in his back. Then mom was forced to her knees so as to facilitate putting a metal implant in her God-crafted cranium. So after mom and sonny were given an express ticket to Heaven, dad must've figured he'd join them. After all, once God helps you with the courage to pull that trigger, there's really no pain - save for those left behind.
Now..... I'm feeling guilty. Guilty that MY prayers had been answered. I had muttered more than once: God, I wish those folks would leave.

[Funtatlaguy]

39. Whoa...heckuva neighborhood

Not really your pot luck supper type, hmm.

[Plucketeer]

46. Truth is

Of the eight homes in our neighborhood, they were the only ugly bunch. Irony is that they moved here from the big city to keep the boy from gang influence and the possibility of getting shot - only to end up with dad fulfilling that prophecy.

[Warpy]

52. Deists have the easiest time of all believers

since their belief is in an all powerful god who is occupied with keeping the universe in some sort of balance but completely unconcerned with the lives of a bunch of bipedal apes on a small planet orbiting a so-so star on the outer fringe of an undistinguished galaxy.

Otherwise, they're rather stuck with Epicurus's Riddle.

[Tikki]

53. There can be immense beauty in randomness....

and there can be ugliness, also. That's the way of the World.

Once accepted no need for any other explanations.

Tikki

[Lordquinton]

60. God is an abusive father

Appy that logic and you can see how it all falls into place. That's actually logic that makes sense.