Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 10:17 AM Oct 2017

The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-u-s-is-retreating-from-religion/

Since 1990, the fraction of Americans with no religious affiliation has nearly tripled, from about 8 percent to 22 percent. Over the next 20 years, this trend will accelerate: by 2020, there will be more of these "Nones" than Catholics, and by 2035, they will outnumber Protestants.



...In the figure, the dark lines show the fraction of respondents in each group for each year of the survey until 2016. The shaded areas show predictions, based on a statistical model of the relationship between year of birth, age, and religion.

...We can get a better view of generational changes if we group people by their year of birth, which captures information about the environment they grew up in, including the probability that they were raised in a religious tradition and their likely exposure to people of other religions. The following figure shows the share of people in each religious group, for birth years from 1880 to 1995:



Interesting trends.
83 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The U.S. Is Retreating from Religion (Original Post) trotsky Oct 2017 OP
Well, since we're heading towards becoming a theocracy AJT Oct 2017 #1
We have the power. We have the numbers. trotsky Oct 2017 #2
Another meaningless graph? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #3
Not necessarily marylandblue Oct 2017 #4
True, but the title is somewhat misleading. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #7
Nowhere near as misleading as this title: trotsky Oct 2017 #10
Please remember that you are not everyone. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #11
Nope. But everyone is still waiting for you to prove your claim. trotsky Oct 2017 #13
2 unproven statements, guillaumeb Oct 2017 #14
You're not a Christian? trotsky Oct 2017 #16
Read from the top of your last response. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #19
So you're wrong, wrong, and wrong. trotsky Oct 2017 #23
1-2-3 still apply. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #24
Then show me what proof looks like. trotsky Oct 2017 #31
I already did. We both know it. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #38
You think it's "silly" that you're being held to the same standard? trotsky Oct 2017 #42
I'm Sparticus! NeoGreen Oct 2017 #30
This is gonna hang around his neck like an albatross. trotsky Oct 2017 #32
There's a Firefly quote about not taking someone seriously. Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #33
Ha, and it's a good one. n/t trotsky Oct 2017 #34
Religion is in fact often defined as belonging to a specific group marylandblue Oct 2017 #20
"a particular system of faith and worship" muriel_volestrangler Oct 2017 #83
Hi, when are you going to prove your claims? trotsky Oct 2017 #5
When you finally prove yours. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #6
Already did. trotsky Oct 2017 #9
We are still waiting snooper2 Oct 2017 #73
What are you, or we, waiting for? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #76
tick tock AtheistCrusader Oct 2017 #80
Meaningless? Not at all. MineralMan Oct 2017 #81
A positive sign Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #8
"Cure theism"? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #12
How about disorder? Cartoonist Oct 2017 #15
Are you saying that theists have a mental disorder? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #17
Or maybe there's nothing wrong with them being christians Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #21
How does someone "practice Christianity"? Mariana Oct 2017 #28
I suppose the way that being homosexual without "practicing homosexuality" is a thing? Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #29
As the man said: Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #18
Does your act play well at the comedy club? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #22
Well what do you call people marylandblue Oct 2017 #25
Confused? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #35
winners marylandblue Oct 2017 #37
Mass murder is winning? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #40
In war, it can be. marylandblue Oct 2017 #41
Is mass killing of civilians a war crime? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #44
War is a terrible thing marylandblue Oct 2017 #46
War is a terrible thing. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #47
I don't view patriotism as a belief system marylandblue Oct 2017 #48
So people do not believe that the US was founded for certain reasons? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #49
Believing the US was founded for certain reasons marylandblue Oct 2017 #50
Patriotism is a belief system, guillaumeb Oct 2017 #54
What is your definition of a belief system? marylandblue Oct 2017 #56
Where we should have started: guillaumeb Oct 2017 #57
What are the set of beliefs required to be a patriot? marylandblue Oct 2017 #59
The exact composition of beliefs varies. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #61
Ok, now we need a definition of belief marylandblue Oct 2017 #65
Explain how love fits into the concept of patriotism. eom guillaumeb Oct 2017 #67
You said love of country is part of patriotism marylandblue Oct 2017 #68
This is awesome. trotsky Oct 2017 #63
Another victory for t. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #70
Thanks! trotsky Oct 2017 #71
You have indeed lost track. An excellent observation. eom guillaumeb Oct 2017 #72
I appreciate you keeping a tally of all your losses! That's very considerate of you. trotsky Oct 2017 #75
I got an observation about "patriotism"... NeoGreen Oct 2017 #64
Yes, it is an observation. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #79
It's been a while since I did either of those Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #27
If only your insight were matched with your sense of superiority. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #36
Why would I make the mistake of agreeing with you? Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #52
Framing quite a bit, are you not? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #55
Carpenters and religion are a terrible combination Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #58
So, when you said: guillaumeb Oct 2017 #60
Certain religious beliefs are, clearly. Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #62
Why then did you choose to talk of curing theism? guillaumeb Oct 2017 #66
Someday we'll have reached every sane human being who can be reached Pope George Ringo II Oct 2017 #69
jesus was a carpenter, but few people know he was actaully really crappy at it snooper2 Oct 2017 #74
He was not a union carpenter. guillaumeb Oct 2017 #77
And a religious war going on right here in the above posts SonofDonald Oct 2017 #26
Ooohh, I like this statement from the report: "and among the youngest adults, there may already... NeoGreen Oct 2017 #39
Shocking, isn't it? trotsky Oct 2017 #43
IKR? I can almost hear someone proclaiming... NeoGreen Oct 2017 #45
Perhaps a lot of religion is retreating from God Turbineguy Oct 2017 #51
Thank God Ohiya Oct 2017 #53
You wouldn't know it to look at what the government is doing daily CanonRay Oct 2017 #78
Islam is growing :) samir.g Oct 2017 #82

AJT

(5,240 posts)
1. Well, since we're heading towards becoming a theocracy
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 10:19 AM
Oct 2017

that trend will not be allowed to continue.....

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
2. We have the power. We have the numbers.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 10:23 AM
Oct 2017

We just need to vote.

No guarantee that the non-religious will vote Democratic, but they generally do so in very large percentages so that's a great sign.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
7. True, but the title is somewhat misleading.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 10:58 AM
Oct 2017

Unless one defines "religion" as belonging to a specific group and/or congregation.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
13. Nope. But everyone is still waiting for you to prove your claim.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 11:05 AM
Oct 2017

No one needs to take you seriously until you do.

You DEMANDED I prove a claim of mine from months ago, and I did.

Now show that you hold yourself to the same standard you hold others.

Prove your claim. Be a decent person, prove it or admit you made it up. Wouldn't that be the "Christian" thing to do? Are you a Christian?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
16. You're not a Christian?
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 11:12 AM
Oct 2017

My apologies!

But I've proved my claim, as everyone has witnessed. You are only humiliating yourself more by denying it.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
19. Read from the top of your last response.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 11:16 AM
Oct 2017

Taking each sentence as separate. 1-2-3, in that order.

I hope that this helps.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
23. So you're wrong, wrong, and wrong.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 11:18 AM
Oct 2017

But you ARE a Christian. Cool. Perhaps you will finally act like a good one.

Time for you to prove YOUR claim.

What good does it do to dwell on this, guillaumeb? You are only making yourself look worse.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
24. 1-2-3 still apply.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 11:20 AM
Oct 2017

You can explain that assertion is proof if you wish, but reality does not work that way.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
31. Then show me what proof looks like.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 12:20 PM
Oct 2017

Prove your claim.

I'm still waiting. Shut me up. Prove your claim. Do it. Can you?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
42. You think it's "silly" that you're being held to the same standard?
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 02:09 PM
Oct 2017

If you proved your claim, then link to it.

Shouldn't be hard.

if you actually did it, that is.

Link to your proof.

I dare you.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
32. This is gonna hang around his neck like an albatross.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 12:23 PM
Oct 2017

Screaming at everyone else to document every statement (or his deceitful modification of it) that they make (to his ever-changing requirements), while steadfastly refusing to back up anything he says.

People notice this. They understand he is not to be taken seriously.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
20. Religion is in fact often defined as belonging to a specific group
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 11:17 AM
Oct 2017

People who believe in God or spirits but are not affiliated with any group often describe themselves as "spiritual" rather than religious. I do think there is a distinction to be made between organized religion and individual spiritual practice. Organized religion is trending down. I haven't seen any surveys on individual spiritual practice.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,271 posts)
83. "a particular system of faith and worship"
Tue Oct 24, 2017, 12:58 PM
Oct 2017

2nd definition Google gives me. So, no, the title isn't "misleading" in any way.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
9. Already did.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 11:00 AM
Oct 2017
Here and here.

Your turn.

Prove your claim so that people will know you can be taken seriously. Right now, you've shown repeatedly that no one should.

Go. Bet you can't though. I'm going to keep reminding you until you either prove your claim or admit it was false.

This is so much fun.

MineralMan

(146,262 posts)
81. Meaningless? Not at all.
Mon Oct 23, 2017, 03:46 PM
Oct 2017

The graphs have meaning, if you understand how such charts work. You might not like that meaning, but it is there in the curves the graph represents. They look very much like exponential curves, actually at their earlier shallow angles, but the angles are increasing. We shall see where they head.

If you look at population curves, you'll see a similar exponential shape. The curve continues to steepen over time. Will the curves in those charts continue that progression? We'll have to wait and see. The human population curve doesn't trend upward at an angle over 45 degrees for hundreds of thousands of years, but then steepens quickly.

Have you taken a class in statistical analysis? You should.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
12. "Cure theism"?
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 11:04 AM
Oct 2017

Are you implying that theism is a sickness, a disease of some sort?


What an interesting and revealing comment.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
17. Are you saying that theists have a mental disorder?
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 11:12 AM
Oct 2017

Another revealing comment. But I do not judge all non-theists by the words of a few.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
21. Or maybe there's nothing wrong with them being christians
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 11:17 AM
Oct 2017

As long as they don't actually practice christianity?

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
28. How does someone "practice Christianity"?
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 12:13 PM
Oct 2017

"Practicing Christianity" is such a vague term that it really is meaningless. There are thousands of Christian denominations and millions of unaffiliated Christian individuals. Each of them "practices Christianity" in a particular way, and each is sure they are "practicing Christianity" the right way, and all the other Christians are doing it wrong.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
29. I suppose the way that being homosexual without "practicing homosexuality" is a thing?
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 12:15 PM
Oct 2017

Don't look at me. I'm not the one who invented rubbish like, "Hate the sin, not the sinner."

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
22. Does your act play well at the comedy club?
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 11:18 AM
Oct 2017

I suspect it would not play as well in a classroom or debate setting.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
44. Is mass killing of civilians a war crime?
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 02:12 PM
Oct 2017

What type of belief system, what type of believer, calls committing a war crime a patriotic act?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
46. War is a terrible thing
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 02:18 PM
Oct 2017

Most wars in history have involved what we today consider war crimes. But nobody thinks a nation state should not have an army, should not have a right to defend itself or is really that surprised when it does terrible things in war (except maybe it's own citizens, who are almost always subject to war propaganda). On the other hand, religions claim to come in the name in the name of peace and unity. A religious war should be an oxymoron. But unfortunately it isn't.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
47. War is a terrible thing.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 02:22 PM
Oct 2017

Agreed. So if people who claim to subscribe to a belief system start a war, what do we say about that? Do we condemn patriotism, or do we condemn those who use patriotism to justify war?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
50. Believing the US was founded for certain reasons
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 02:46 PM
Oct 2017

is not related to patriotism. It's an opinion about history that is shared by billions of people around the world who agree that historical events happen for certain reasons.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
54. Patriotism is a belief system,
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 03:08 PM
Oct 2017

wherein a country, or the concept of country, is the object of the belief.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
57. Where we should have started:
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 03:15 PM
Oct 2017
noun
faith based on a series of beliefs but not formalized into a religion; also, a fixed coherent set of beliefs prevalent in a community or society


http://www.dictionary.com/browse/belief-system


Some people insist that belief can only be applied to a formal religious system, but any set of beliefs can comprise a belief system.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
61. The exact composition of beliefs varies.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 03:24 PM
Oct 2017

GOP voters and Democratic voters seem to have quite different views.

I think love of country is one component. A belief in the goodness, the necessity, of that country.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
65. Ok, now we need a definition of belief
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 07:59 PM
Oct 2017

be·lief

1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
synonyms: faith, trust, reliance, confidence, credence
"belief in the value of hard work"

Do you accept these definitions. If so does "love" fall under definition 1 or 2? Is it possible to love something without believing in it either its necessity or its goodness? To be a patriot, must you have trust faith or confidence in the United States? How many liberals have that trust in the United States now? How many conservatives had it under Obama?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
63. This is awesome.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 04:01 PM
Oct 2017

"faith based on a series of beliefs but not formalized into a religion"

That's YOUR chosen definition for a belief system. We're gonna roll with it!

Your definition says that not every belief system is a religion (it's "NOT formalized into a religion" ), but every religion IS a belief system.

So you just confirmed you have been making a logical error this entire time. Every time someone criticizes religion, you leap in with your "but... but... patriotism" shtick.

But your chosen definition says that patriotism isn't formalized into a religion.

Religion IS formalized, and contains specific beliefs. Those specific beliefs are sometimes clearly harmful, and result in the harm done in the name of religion.

However, you can't complain that patriotism is just as bad, because nothing you identify as being part of patriotism is actually, FORMALLY, part of "patriotism" because it's not formalized. According to the definition that YOU provided.

Way to go, dude. You just humiliated yourself again. This is way too much fun.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
75. I appreciate you keeping a tally of all your losses! That's very considerate of you.
Mon Oct 23, 2017, 02:01 PM
Oct 2017

You have in the past noted how stupid you think I am, so it's nice you are helping. Way to go!

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
64. I got an observation about "patriotism"...
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 04:06 PM
Oct 2017

...it boils down to just 2 basic concepts:


“But you know as well as I, patriotism is a word; and one that generally comes to mean either: ‘my country, right or wrong’, which is infamous; or ‘my country is always right’, which is imbecile.”


it applies to 'religious beliefs' too.


“But you know as well as I, faith is just a word; and one that generally comes to mean either: ‘my religion, right or wrong’, which is infamous; or ‘my religion is always right’, which is imbecile.”


guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
79. Yes, it is an observation.
Mon Oct 23, 2017, 02:29 PM
Oct 2017

But, in contrast to your apparent binary world view, there are other options.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
27. It's been a while since I did either of those
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 12:13 PM
Oct 2017

But my day job involves locking myself in a small room to have arguments with doctors and judges. Rest assured, when discussing a serious matter with well-prepared people who can not only articulate their own position but at least correctly define my own position, I approach it much differently than talking about religion with you. After all, those situations have absolutely nothing in common.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
52. Why would I make the mistake of agreeing with you?
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 02:50 PM
Oct 2017

I genuinely don't have a sense of superiority--all that time with doctors and judges does keep me humble and remind me how much time I definitely don't spend as the smartest guy in the room.

But since you will incorrectly define any position except your own--which you refuse to define at all--you have to accept that one of the consequences of those failures is how people view you. That's not about me. There's also the other matter you're being called on by somebody else. That's not about me, either.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
58. Carpenters and religion are a terrible combination
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 03:15 PM
Oct 2017

Mixing those just once resulted in millions dead and billions with quality of life damaged. No thanks.



guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
60. So, when you said:
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 03:22 PM
Oct 2017
I have doubts we'll ever fully cure theism, but I'll take all the progress we can make.


were you implying that religious belief is, in your view, a mental disorder?

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
62. Certain religious beliefs are, clearly.
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 03:36 PM
Oct 2017

Some are at least conceivably defensible under the right circumstances if you squint and hold your head just right. Within the overall umbrella of "theism" falls some absolutely insane crap, though. Sadly, the stuff which most needs to go is also the stuff which is going to be the hardest to eradicate. Of course, you refuse to indicate whether or not you're in that group.

And if you would care to insist that I have to pretend that it's all sane because religious liberty prevents me from calling bat-guano crazy exactly what it is, I have one thing to say to you: Go ahead and drink the Kool-Aid.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
66. Why then did you choose to talk of curing theism?
Sat Oct 21, 2017, 12:35 PM
Oct 2017

Deliberate overstatement? An expression of personal feeling?

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
69. Someday we'll have reached every sane human being who can be reached
Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:21 PM
Oct 2017

I have hopes that there will come a day when anyone who can handle reality on their own will choose to do so. When that happens, we can talk about curing the rest. As it is, there are some who could stand to be cured now.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
74. jesus was a carpenter, but few people know he was actaully really crappy at it
Mon Oct 23, 2017, 01:34 PM
Oct 2017

I mean, couldn't build a sheep shed LOL...

So he quit and found out he can make a living walking around telling funny stories...

SonofDonald

(2,050 posts)
26. And a religious war going on right here in the above posts
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 12:02 PM
Oct 2017

That's why I say keep your religion to yourselves, don't ever point it towards me, I have no problem with your beliefs as long as you do so.

If not, then it's fucking on......

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
39. Ooohh, I like this statement from the report: "and among the youngest adults, there may already...
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 02:00 PM
Oct 2017

... be more Nones than Protestants."

Worth repeating:


...and among the youngest adults, there may already be more Nones than Protestants."





trotsky

(49,533 posts)
43. Shocking, isn't it?
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 02:11 PM
Oct 2017

Careful, this upsets the sensitive religious folks among us. They need to know that belief is god is as strong as it ever was, even stronger, that nothing is changing, etc.

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
45. IKR? I can almost hear someone proclaiming...
Fri Oct 20, 2017, 02:16 PM
Oct 2017

..."god now, god tomorrow and god forever!"...


Talk about railing against the tide...so to speak...

Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»The U.S. Is Retreating fr...