I have been criticized for calling Christianity a shortcut religion.

[MineralMan]

I've also called it a religion with a one-step path to salvation.

I find that odd, since the only things Christianity requires for eternal life and forgiveness of sin is belief that Jesus is the savior and a declaration of repentance for your sinful nature. Just that one thing, and you're home free. Nothing else is required.

Not all religions make it so easy. No, indeed. But, with Christianity, that simple act ensures you of eternal reward.

See, I think that's a shortcut. I think that's a one-step path. I also think that the simplicity of it is the primary reason that Christianity went on to replace a long list of polytheistic pagan religions, particularly in the western world. I think it's brilliant, really. If I were going to create a religion that was bound to succeed, that's what I'd offer, too.

But, apparently, some disagree with my characterization. I'd be interested in hearing their arguments as to what else is required for Christians to be "saved by grace."

This thread would be a great place for people to list the other requirements Christians have to achieve eternal life and forgiveness.

Thanks.

[trotsky]

1. Their biggest schism came over this issue.

You want arguments about what's required? You'll get them.

[MineralMan]

2. Yes, so it did. Good old constipated Martin Luther.

He simplified it even further than it had been, and had great success in reforming the RCC and gathering hordes of followers for his even simpler version of salvation's path. As for those arguments, I hope those who argue come equipped with references for their arguments.

I'll be interested in seeing scriptural support that eliminates the content of John 3, in all its simplicity. Yes, indeed.

[TexasProgresive]

3. I think a lot of you MineralMan, but when it comes to my belief I think the phrase is

"Casting pearls before swine." I do not think you are a swine, but it would just be a useless endeavor. I will leave this one caveat. Grace is a free gift, but if the recipient does not allow it to work then it is truly pearls cast before swine.

[trotsky]

10. Umm...

Are you actually saying here that anyone who hears the message of your religion, and rejects it, is basically "swine"?

[MineralMan]

16. I don't think that was the intent, really.

Many people take my references to a shortcut or one-step religion as sarcasm. They are not. They are an analysis of why Christianity has been so successful in converting people from pagan religions.

The whole idea of Jesus as the ultimate sacrificial lamb is probably the cleverest religious doctrine ever created. I can't imagine a concept more likely to convince people to switch religions.

That's not being cynical or sarcastic. It's a comment on the core belief that drives Christianity. It's hard to beat that one, religion-wise.

[trotsky]

20. Well sometimes the hard sell is convincing them they are awful and in need of saving.

Once you accomplish that, though, the Jesus hook will reel them in pretty easily, yes.

[MineralMan]

21. It's pretty easy, really. We're all liable to do selfish things that harm others.

Not all the time, but sometimes. It's not hard to convince most people that they haven't always been nice. So, selling that is like selling free ice cream cones on a hot August afternoon.

[saidsimplesimon]

51. It's a deep hole

to dig, yet, I am still fit. There is gargantuan gap, in my simple mind, between "faith without facts", "religious desire for a saviour" and reality.

[unblock]

4. i can answer this one, having asked it myself.

i've actually heard plenty of christians make your argument. indeed, some have joked they plan to live a life of sin, then accept jesus on their deathbeds.


from some people who take their christian beliefs more seriously, i'm told that while what you say is true, it is vastly more difficult than you portray to actually take jesus into your heart and genuinely repent. you have to really believe it and really mean it.

it's not just a declaration of "oh i believe in jesus" like you're reading a script. you have to genuinely believe in all he stands for. and if you genuinely believe in all that, then you'll find you can't live a life of sin, you'll be compelled to live a better life.

and god knows who's sincere and who's faking.

[MineralMan]

5. Well, if that's the case, there sure are a lot of people who

believe they are Christians who are going to be in for a shock. And that includes a whole pile of Christian leaders. According to my understanding, the sinful nature of humanity cannot actually be overcome, and sinfulness will continue, even after acceptance and a repentant heart.

So, either what are supposed to be Jesus' words in John 3 are true or they are not true. Either the oh-so-common sales pitch for conversion is real or it is not real.

[unblock]

6. sorry i was sloppy to say "if you believe you can't live a life of sin"

my other statement was the correct one, that you'll lead a better life.

you are correct that christian belief holds that even if you truly believe, you can't avoid being sinful. you can, however, try to avoid it, and be repentant about it.

my point was more that you can't deliberately lead the "life of sin" that my casually christian friends would talk about, with its decadence and complete disregard for right and wrong.

[MineralMan]

7. I don't think there's any scriptural support

for your last sentence, really. Now, I could accept that an insincere conversion might not work out, but where's the line in being unable to lead a life free from sin? Are some sins OK and will be simply forgiven, while others overturn your belief? I know that the Roman Catholic Church sort of said that at one point, but it's sort of unclear, since they also were selling indulgences at the same time.

How is it determined whether a person had an acceptable or unacceptable life of sin after acceptance.

Nope. I can't find any scriptural support for that position.

[unblock]

12. not clear on your point.

my understanding as that if you truly accept and repent, you're not then expected to live a perfect sin-free life as that's impossible.

but you are expected to sincerely try and to continue to repent on those occasions when you fail.

[MineralMan]

22. Yes, you are expected to, but if you fail, you're still covered,

if my understanding is correct. If it is not, there are a lot of Christians who are going to be very sorry...

[Lordquinton]

8. So deathbed confessions don't work?

Those are highly claimed among circles.

[Cartoonist]

9. They even have a Sacrament for it

Don't forget to make a donation, God needs money.

[Lordquinton]

40. You're dieing anyways

you don't need your wealth anymore, just leave it to the church...

[unblock]

13. genuine, sincere deathbed confessions work

but if you plot your whole life around sinning, expecting to be able to confess at the last minute, and then snicker while you pretend to suddenly see the light, that whole plan doesn't work.

either your life will end suddenly, without time to confess; or your heart will be so hardened by then that you will not be able to be sincere.

or so i'm told.

[Lordquinton]

39. I've been told that everyone confesses on their deathbed

that the fear of death will turn even the hardest hearts.

Amazing the things we're told.

[unblock]

41. yeah, and atheists are magnetically repelled from foxholes.

[Lordquinton]

42. Simple truths of the universe

it's just common sense.

[Angry Dragon]

11. some christian religions require good works

[MineralMan]

14. Some do.

Others don't. There's no single version of Christianity, of course. It has thousands of denominations and sects. I'm really talking primarily about the average post-Reformation protestant denominations. Agreement isn't absolute on this matter, I realize.

[Peaceful Protester]

15. Faith, Repentance, and Action

Last edited Sat Dec 9, 2017, 03:27 PM - Edit history (1)

There are 3 things Christianity requires for eternal life and forgiveness of sin:

1) Faith (believing that Jesus is Savior; studying the character of Jesus; what he said and did)
2) Repentance (acknowledge our sinful nature, its effect on others, and allow it to pass away)
3) Action (gratitude for His sacrifice, creates in us, a new character, as we follow in his steps)

1) Faith • (John 3:16)
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

2) Repentance • (1st John 1:10)
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

3) Action • (2nd Corinthians 5:17)
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
.

[MineralMan]

17. If that's the case, there are far fewer actual Christians than people who believe

they are Christians. I'll leave it at that. Paul has played a very large role in the development of organized Christianity, certainly.

[Igel]

29. It's been claimed that much of current Xianity is

so different from the mainstream from 50-80 years ago that it constitutes a new religion. That much of current Xianity's enabled by the Summer of Love and the level of theological sophistication there.

Sanctification, discipleship, holiness are out. Some disparagingly refer to "Jesus is my boyfriend" views of Xianity in Xian rock.

I'm reading, off and on, a book from the 1880s. It has the same battles in mind: Those who believe that sanctification is necessary and faith without works is dead versus those who believe that if you just believe and love Jesus all's great and you've been perfected. 140 years later, same divergence, except that the "all you need is love" types are in the ascendancy.

But the strains of Xianity are of long standing. Even a lot of current liberal Xian views are really social gospel views, and those go back to older views from the earlier 1800s.

[Act_of_Reparation]

18. The concept of divine forgiveness is fucked up, when you really think about it.

Say you punch your neighbor in the head and steal his Bazooka Joe Bubble Gum. A week later, you feel really bad about it. So, you go to church and confess your sins. The priest tells you to say 10 Hail Marys, 4 Our Fathers, and 7 Grand Old Duke of Yorks and you'll be absolved. You say the words. You feel better. No more sins. Cool beans.

Your neighbor, meanwhile, has a goose egg and no Bazooka Joe. And if he has the nerve to feel angry about it, he'll be chastised for not "turning the other cheek". He's expected to put on a smiley face and pretend like you didn't accost him and steal his shit last week.

[MineralMan]

19. Yup. Acts of contrition should be made to the person you harmed,

not to a priest. Apply for forgiveness from the person who you offended by your actions and try to make amends. Perhaps a 12-pack of Bazooka Joe would help in that effort. That's my advice.

Apologizing to intermediaries is inadequate and useless, since the harm was to someone else.

But, I'm not a Christian, so what do I know? I try hard not to offend or act to harm others. If I fail, I try to obtain forgiveness from my victim. If I fail at that, I can only try harder not to do the same thing again to someone else.

Now, if it was Jesus you punched in the head and from whom you stole the Bazooka Joe, that might be another matter. I'd be very afraid, if that were the case. He might tell his Dad.

[Peaceful Protester]

25. MineralMan

That's pretty good advice, and I love your sense of humor.

[Peaceful Protester]

24. Character Is Forged on the Anvil of Adversity

(Luke 6:37)
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.

(Matthew 5:43)
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven.

(Abraham Lincoln)
"We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic cords of memory will swell when again touched as surely they will be by the better angels of our nature."

(Martin Luther King Jr.)
Forgiveness does not mean ignoring what has been done or putting a false label on an evil act. It means, rather, that the evil act no longer remains as a barrier to the relationship. Forgiveness is a catalyst creating the atmosphere necessary for a fresh start and a new beginning.

Forgiveness allows us to keep things in perspective, remain at peace, and heal. It can also facilitate a change in the character of the perpetrator. Material things can be replaced, and our laws can allow for just treatment of both parties.
.

[Act_of_Reparation]

28. Forgiveness isn't the issue.

It's who is dispensing said forgiveness that is most problematic.

[Peaceful Protester]

30. Can you explain?

Whom do you mean by who is dispensing forgiveness?

[Mariana]

31. Is it right for the perpetrator to be receiving forgiveness

from someone other than his victim?

[Peaceful Protester]

33. Love and Forgiveness Are Gifts You Pay Forward

Last edited Thu Dec 7, 2017, 04:03 AM - Edit history (2)

Before He was brought to the cross, Jesus offered love. He said, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

While on the cross, Jesus offered forgiveness. He said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." A powerful lesson; forgive your enemies and pray for them.

--

Love and forgiveness are gifts that originate with God and go hand in hand. Love and forgiveness are meant to be shared far and wide by everyone. People like to rationalize that their sin is better than another person's sin. But, according to the Bible everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

--

Dylan Roof killed nine people during a prayer service at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church. In the aftermath, the congregation immediately expressed their love and forgiveness. The hope is that the perpetrator will repent, ask God for forgiveness, accept the love of Jesus, and become a new creature.

Although the victims suffered the unbearable pain of losing their loved ones in a heinous act of violence, they were able to offer the same love and forgiveness they had received from God themselves. When we receive God's love and forgiveness, we have an obligation to pay it forward.

If his victims can offer God's love and forgiveness to the perpetrator of such an evil act, who am I to do otherwise? Although he was offered God's love and forgiveness, he was not spared justice. He will spend a very long time in prison paying for the consequences of his actions.

--

When we love and forgive others, we let go of the past, pay it forward, and begin to heal. Paying it forward is God's will, and it allows others the opportunity to experience God's love and forgiveness also. Why? Because God is love, and it's God's will that everyone have an opportunity to come to Him.

--

(Matthew 5:43)
You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven.

(Luke 6:37)
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.
.

[Act_of_Reparation]

35. Profound.

But you didn't actually answer the question.

[Peaceful Protester]

48. Your original comment appears to merely be a statement about divine forgiveness

Last edited Sat Dec 9, 2017, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Your original comment simply stated how you think divine forgiveness is messed up.

The reason I chose to respond to your comment is because I can relate. I suppose I've had similar feelings about divine forgiveness much of my life, and I'm not sure why. But, recently I've begun to experience things much differently, and I'm not exactly sure why. I'm not exactly sure why my feelings have changed.

I think it has something to do with a change in my thinking that shifted my perspective. I think I used to assume that I must always be looking out for myself. Like the saying, "look out for number one". Always acting in my own self interest; in a manner primarily advantageous only to myself; always being on the alert to never let anyone take advantage of me.

Then one day I had an epiphany that shifted my perspective. It was an epiphany about the Golden Rule; treating others the way I would like to be treated. I don't think I had actually ever truly understand what it meant. I guess before my epiphany, I never really believed in the Golden Rule. Anyway have a good day.
.

[Act_of_Reparation]

54. The golden rule is irrelevant.

I'm not talking about whether you personally should forgive those who harm you. I'm talking about the Sacrament of Reconciliation, the act of God forgiving you your trespasses without regard for those you trespassed against.

[Peaceful Protester]

59. Simple

If one doesn't believe in God, one simply doesn't believe in God (not that it's a bad thing).

I suppose it's like racism:

Q) How many races of people are there?

A) One, the human race (it's a social construct).

...but then again.
.

[Act_of_Reparation]

60. Again, that is not what I'm talking about.

I'm not talking about whether or not reconciliation is actually a thing. I'm talking about whether or not the concept is ethical.

[Peaceful Protester]

62. This is an interesting question.

Q) Is the Sacrament of Reconciliation ethical?

I'm NOT catholic, so I had to research the term "Sacrament of Reconciliation."

Sacrament of Penance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_of_Penance

The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation (commonly called Penance, Reconciliation, or Confession) is one of the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church (called sacred mysteries in the Eastern Catholic Churches), in which the faithful obtain absolution for the sins committed against God and neighbor and are reconciled with the community of the Church. By this sacrament Christians are freed from sins committed after Baptism. The sacrament of Penance is considered the normal way to be absolved from mortal sin, by which one would otherwise condemn oneself to Hell.

--

Ethic | Definition of Ethic by Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethic

Ethics can refer broadly to moral principles, but one often sees it applied to questions of correct behavior within a relatively narrow area of activity.

More narrowly ethics tends to suggest aspects of universal fairness and the question of whether or not an action is responsible.

--

Referring back to the original question above, my personal opinion is, Yes.

My reasoning is, as long as there's proper adherence to both spiritual and secular laws and ethics, there's nothing that cannot be corrected or made right. This presumes there are consequences for one's actions. One should always have access to redemption. And that's the message of the Bible; otherwise known as the Good News. The goal being to restore people's relationship with God.

Spiritually nothing is more characteristic of the divine nature than forgiveness. Man is eager for vengeance and God is eager for forgiveness. In fact, never are we more like God than when we love our enemies and do good to those that harm us. By doing this, we prove we are children of God. Forgiveness is man's greatest need and therefore God's greatest gift. And the gospel, the message of the church is the message that God will forgive all your sins.
.

[guillaumeb]

23. That is the problem when one insists on a very simplistic framing of a faith.

On the other hand, it does allow for many simplistic comments in support of the simplistic framing.

Tis a gift to be simple, but not always.

If I were to dismiss atheism as the reverse image of theism, with one unprovable belief replacing another, I would be criticized by some atheists.

[MineralMan]

26. Atheism is not a belief.

For the last time. It is simply disbelief of things that lack evidence. If you cannot understand that, you cannot understand anything, and discussion with you is a waste of time.

[guillaumeb]

27. Of course you believe it to be so.

Would you say that it is a simplistic mis-framing of your belief?

If so, you see my point about this type of post.

[Cartoonist]

50. A simplistic framing

Theist A believes in X.
Theist A has no proof of any kind.
Realist B wants proof.
Theist A calls "wanting proof" to be a belief system.

[marylandblue]

32. Why do you think a belief without evidence

Is the same as a belief with evidence? Or is there no difference between believing in unicorns and believing in elephants?

[trotsky]

34. Good question.

So naturally, you will not get an actual answer.

[guillaumeb]

36. What is the evidence for atheism?

Assuming that is what you are referring to.

Both are based on unprovable things.

[marylandblue]

37. We've looked for God for tbousands of years abd have not found him

No physical process requires God, no verifiable evidence of miracles, no evidence that people who claim to talk to God and so on. So it's really a lack of evidence for God. No evidence anyone has seen a unicorn either.

[guillaumeb]

38. Have you literally looked? I mean really looked?

What were you looking for?
Where did you look?
Where you looking for:

A physical being?
A force of some sort?
An energized cloud of sentient particles inhabiting a corner of existence a billion light years from earth?

What form do you feel God would take?

It is well known that the human idea of a deity is often anthropomorphized, but this speaks more to a human need than any aspect of God.

[Mariana]

43. I can tell you what would convince just about every atheist

and just about every non-Christian, too, that the Christian god is real.

Send Jesus back to earth. Have him perform the exact same miracles he did before, but under controlled conditions and modern scientific observation and testing. If he were to repeat his earlier performance and walk on water, control the weather, wither a fig tree, turn water into wine, bring corpses back to life, heal various diseases and disabilities, feed multitudes with a small basket of groceries, ascend bodily into heaven, etc. I would certainly be convinced. He could skip any miracles that are cruel, like casting demons into pigs and making them run off a cliff, and there's no need for a replay of the crucifixion and resurrection - the above miracles would be more than adequate.

If it was good for the people 2000 years ago to see him perform undeniable miracles in front of their eyes, why isn't it good now?

[guillaumeb]

44. So you need physical proof.

I understand that you have that need. But your need is certainly not proof, or disproof, of anything other than I believe it is your bar of proof, so to speak.

[Mariana]

45. I'm just like the people Jesus walked among 2000 years ago.

The didn't believe until they saw it, either.

[guillaumeb]

46. True, and some still disputed His claims. eom

[Mariana]

47. But many believed who wouldn't have otherwise.

Was it held against them that they required evidence before they would believe? Anyway, the same would be true today. You can never convince everyone of anything - some would dismiss even the most solid scientific evidence of the miracles being performed. There would still be an awful lot of converts.

[guillaumeb]

49. True. We are in agreement on this point. eom

[marylandblue]

56. Everybody has a bar of proof

Needing proof is not a belief, it is more like an a priori requirement for human thought. Without the requirement proof, you would simply believe everything everyone said, alll the time, even if they were joking. So questioning the need for proof is like questioning the ability to think at all. And if we can't think at all, what are we doing right now?

[guillaumeb]

57. Some need physical proof.

Others, those with faith, find the signs of a Creator in all of creation.

[marylandblue]

58. Proof, physical or not, is something objective

It's not something that only those with faith get to see.

On edit: because requiring faith upfront is simply assuming what you wish to prove.

[Peaceful Protester]

52. I usually post to political threads

I can't remember how I ended up here. But I really like this thread because I rarely get a chance to hear and share thoughts on the subject. Everyone seems to have an interest in religion, as well as a different take. Religion provides a fertile ground for a plethora of questions, statements, and discussions.
.

[Mariana]

53. Religion inspires so many people's behavior, for good or for bad.

It is reasonable for even the non-religious to be very interested in the subject, since it is impossible to avoid being affected by it.

[Peaceful Protester]

55. True

It's interesting how we're affected by it everyday in one way or another.

[True Dough]

61. I'll tell you how you ended up here

Divine intervention!!!