ABSURD: Church blesses AR-15 assault rifles

[True Dough]

Indefensible (both dodging AR-15 bullets and this particular church's glorification of deadly weapons).

NEWFOUNDLAND, Pa. (Reuters) - Hundreds of couples toting AR-15 rifles packed a Unification church in Pennsylvania on Wednesday to have their marriages blessed and their weapons celebrated as “rods of iron” that could have saved lives in a recent Florida school shooting.

Women dressed in white and men in dark suits gripped the guns, which they had been urged to bring unloaded to the church in the rural Pocono Mountains, about 100 miles (160 km) north of Philadelphia. Many celebrants wore crowns - some made of bullets - while church officials dressed in flowing bright pink and white garments to go with their armaments.

Reverend Hyung Jin “Sean” Moon, leader of the church after the death of his father and church founder, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, blessed the roughly 250 couples at the service, a church spokesman said.

The Feb. 28 marriage blessing ceremony had been planned long before a man with an AR-15 assault-style rifle massacred 17 students and school staff in Parkland, Florida, on Feb. 14, the spokesman said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-guns-church/couples-lug-ar-15-assault-rifles-to-pennsylvania-church-blessing-idUSKCN1GC2V3

[TBA]

1. Who Would Jesus Shoot?

[rsdsharp]

5. More like who would Reverend Moon shoot.

This is the Unification Church. Moonies.

[trotsky]

2. Now, now.

We aren't allowed to call anybody's beliefs "absurd." Unless the most enlightened among us say it's OK.

[True Dough]

4. I'm not waiting on permission to use the term absurd!

If it looks like an assault rifle, sounds like an assault rifle and fires multiple rounds in seconds like an assault rifle then it's absurd to bless it in the name of the "lord."

[Act_of_Reparation]

6. What if the "lord" is a god of war?

He certainly does seem to revel in slaughter, if one reads his book.

[True Dough]

7. Then he/she/it is absurd as well

And reprehensible. And not a being with whom I'd care to spend eternity.

[Pope George Ringo II]

9. We need an assault god ban.

And an age limit on buying anything that dangerous.

[Act_of_Reparation]

11. The Sons of Mars aren't going to like that.

Big lobby, that Mars lobby.

[AllaN01Bear]

3. this good guy gun thing is a bunch of crock

[MineralMan]

8. Moonies.

Gang weddings of people who had never met, and now Gun-toting for God.

Is this really religion, or is it something completely different?

I know this: I don't want those folks anywhere near me. They are wackadoos.

[Iggo]

17. Oh seriously? It's the fucking Moonies?

FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!!!!

[struggle4progress]

10. IMO it's a very rightwing Korean group masquerading as a church. These are the folk

behind "The Washington Times"

[Bretton Garcia]

12. Many "real" churches are rightwing, nationalist

Old Testament Judaism was inextricably mixed in with violent military defense of the nations of Israel and Judah.

[struggle4progress]

13. Whatever you think of Judaism or Christianity, the Moonies really have nothing to do with either

[marylandblue]

18. It's clearly an offshoot of Christianity

You don't have to like it or agree with it, but the relationship is there.

[struggle4progress]

19. It's a dangerous rightwing famly-business empire, hidden behind a personality cult

Moonie leader 'crowned' in Senate
Julian Borger in Washington
Wed 23 Jun 2004 21.49 EDT First published on Wed 23 Jun 2004 21.49 EDT

The US Senate was used for a bizarre ritual in which the Rev Sun Myung Moon, the head of the Unification church, was "crowned" and declared himself the messiah in the presence of more than a dozen Republican and Democratic members of Congress, it was reported yesterday.

"Emperors, kings and presidents ... have declared to all heaven and Earth that Reverend Sun Myung Moon is none other than humanity's saviour, messiah, returning Lord and true parent," the 85-year-old Korean "Moonie" cult leader told several hundred guests at the meeting in one of the Senate's office buildings on March 23, according to the Washington Post.

He also claimed endorsement from Marx, Lenin, Stalin and Hitler, who had all been reformed and reborn through his church's teachings ...

The glittering event in the Senate's Dirksen building reflected Mr Moon's extraordinary influence in US politics. He owns the conservative newspaper the Washington Times and the US news agency United Press International ...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/24/usa.religion

[marylandblue]

20. From the article you linked

"an idiosyncratic version of Christianity"

Like I said, you don't have to agree with it, or like it, and it can still be a total scam.

[struggle4progress]

22. No one, who has himself crowned messiah, can be considered Christian

[marylandblue]

23. Anyone can call themselves a Christian

And other Christians are free to say he is not. In fact, arguing about who is a Christian and what a Christian is supposed to believe is one of Christianity's most time honored traditions, going back to at least the 2nd century, perhaps even earlier.

[struggle4progress]

24. "Anyone can call themselves X and other Xs are free to say he is not" is a useless argument-form

You may check that by substituting various words for "X"

For example, you might replace "X" by "scientist"

You will find that your text becomes a somewhat silly argument that (due to the fact that anyone can say anything) we cannot possibly use the word "scientist" in any meaningful way

[MineralMan]

26. And you are qualified to judge who is a Christian and who is not?

Really? Let's see your lists, please.

Are Mormons Christians.
Seventh Day Adventists?
Jehovah's Witnesses?

They think they are. What do you think, since you seem eager enough to make such decisions?

[struggle4progress]

31. IMO Lewis handled such issues rather well in "Mere Christianity"

When you have reached your own room, be kind to those who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then your are under orders to pray for them. This is one of the rules common to the whole house

As a general rule, I see no point in my making an effort to detail the ways I might agree or disagree with (say) Mormons or Seventh Day Adventists. Very little is usually accomplished by many doctrinal disputes, especially since different people disagree about the importance of various issues

However, some misrepresentations cannot be described as "Christianity"

I have never seen Mormons or Seventh Day Adventists (say) choose one of their members as "Lord of the Second Advent," claim that he and his wife were the "True Parents" of humanity and that their offspring were free from sin, and crown that member as the messiah. But the Unification Church has done so with its founder. If you wish to discuss whether they might have been right or wrong in that, you can probably find someone to argue the point with you. I remark only that such acts and doctrines show that the Unification Church (whatever it actually is) does not fall recognizably within "Christian" tradition

[MineralMan]

32. So, you do feel competent to decide? Interesting.

I'll come to you from now on when I'm curious about who is a Christian and who is not. As an atheist, I simply accept the declaration of individuals as to that.

[MineralMan]

33. C. S. Lewis died long before the Moonies existed.

I've read several of his books. So, are you praying for the Moonies?

You're OK with the Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists, but not the Moonies. I see. How do you feel about right-wing fundamentalists?

Uff da!

[struggle4progress]

37. Moon's original organization dates from about 1954. Lewis died in November 1963.

[marylandblue]

28. Scientist has a generally agreed definition

That has a community with institutions like universities and governments that can enforce that definition. There is no agreed upon definition of a Christian. At one time, the Catholic Church decided who was a Christian and had the power to enforce that decision, but those days are long gone. Now we have a lot of people calling themselves Christians, and there is always some other Christians around to call the first group non-Christian. How are the rest of us to know who is right? No way really.

But my main point wasn't even that. I actually said the Unification Church was an offshoot of Christianity. I don't see how that is disputable considering they recognize Jesus, but add their own new Messiahs. You still don't have to like it. But even if you can't accept them as Christians, how are you going to stop them from taking your book and creating a new religion out of it, like the Mormons and Muslims before them?

[Brainstormy]

29. Indeed it is

the origin of Christianity was nothing if not a internecine battle over what was, or was not, legitimately Christian. And the tradition carries on. Does no one remember the "Are Mormons Christians?" debates inspired by Romney's candidacy?

[struggle4progress]

38. Christianity originated as a Jewish cult near Roman-occupied Jerusalem

The Romans installed their own client as King and (according to Josephus) replaced the Temple high priest

There were at least three uprisings against the Romans around 4BCE and another around 6CE

The earliest Christian stories must date from somewhere near this time but seem to have been oral: they are not known in writing until after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and much of the local population fled; and then they appear as Greek rather than Hebrew texts

A curious feature of the Christian story is that the local secular and religion establishment engineer the execution (by the Romans and in the most degrading manner possible) of the central character. This frightening display of rule-by-terror is then explained as evidence of divine grace, using available Jewish notions: the person executed is compared to the Passover lamb, whose blood on doorways saved the Israelites, while the firstborn of their Egyptian slaveholders died in the exodus, and finally becomes the awaited Jewish messiah

The major conflicts experienced by the first Christian communities would therefore naturally have been, not with other Christians, but with the Roman powers that regarded them as followers of an executed criminal or insurrectionist and with other Jewish people, who regarded their cult as strangely twisting Jewish ideas

[struggle4progress]

14. The "Unification Church" is not simply a "church" with a lot of rightwing nationalist members

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unification_Church_affiliated_organizations

[MineralMan]

30. And then, there's this:

In 1997 American civil rights activist, Baptist minister, television/radio talk show host and political adviser Al Sharpton took part in at least three religious ceremonies hosted by the Unification Church, in which he and his wife, Katherine, renewed their marriage vows based on the tenets of the UC.[46]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_Church

[struggle4progress]

36. ... Sharpton said .. he would never join the church .. and maintained that he knew

little about its theology. But he acknowledged he had strongly endorsed .. the marriage-blessing ceremony ... ''I'm not a follower of them or anyone else,'' Mr. Sharpton said. ''But I give him credit for supporting the idea of family values'' ... The church newspaper said ... 'Rev. Sharpton gave testimony to the True Parents,'' the newspaper said, using the church's term for Mr. Moon and his wife ... Mr. Sharpton said he never used phrases like ''True Parents'' and did not even know Mr. Moon was present at the June event ...
Sharpton in Ceremonies Of Unification Church
By DAVID FIRESTONE
SEPT. 12, 1997

Sharpton shouldn't have let them use him that way.

[struggle4progress]

15. Washington Times

The Washington Times is a newspaper owned by Reverend Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church, through its company News World Communications. The paper was first published on May 17, 1982 ... The Washington Times has been a corporate funder of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) ...

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Washington_Times

[MineralMan]

27. And what other Christian organizations have funded ALEC do you suppose.

You can start here, and follow the leads:

https://twocare.org/the-gathering-the-religious-rights-cash-cow/

[MineralMan]

25. That could be a description for many Southern Baptist churches, frankly.

Complete with AR-15 raffles, to boot.

Are they not Christians? They're very rightwing groups.

Which Christians do you think are not Christian? Do you have a list?

[Iggo]

16. Guns are more important than people.

[struggle4progress]

21. The Fall of the House of Moon

By MARIAH BLAKE
November 12, 2013

... <Sun Myung Moon> had come to the United States from Korea nearly 40 years earlier, aiming to “subjugate” America as the first phase in a plan to establish a new world order. Moon had gone on to amass extraordinary political influence, building a vast network of powerful right-wing organizations and forging alliances with every Republican presidential administration since Ronald Reagan’s. In 2004, he and his wife even staged an elaborate coronation ceremony in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, which at least a dozen lawmakers attended. Republican Roscoe Bartlett bowed down before the couple, and Democrat Danny Davis carried in one of two golden crowns that were placed on their heads. Moon then informed the audience that “kings and presidents” had declared him “humanity’s savior” and that Jesus, Buddha, Hitler, and Stalin had been “reborn as new persons” through his teachings ...

https://newrepublic.com/article/115512/unification-church-profile-fall-house-moon

[MineralMan]

34. And the Right-Wing Christians are aiming to do the same thing.

Dominionist Christians also have the goal of subjugating America to their doctrines. How do you feel about that? They are also forging alliances with Republicans, and even Donald Trump, to further their goals.

Do you speak about them in the same way? I've not seen that here.

[struggle4progress]

39. Life is short, and there are other fires to put off

https://www.democraticunderground.com/121879248#post9

[DinahMoeHum]

35. What's next? worshiping a nuclear weapon?

[Bradical79]

40. Ah, Moonies

Wish we could have kept that shit from leaving South Korea. We've got enough to deal with without importing more crazy cults.