If you are Christian

[edhopper]

do you believe that the story of the crucifixion and resurrection are literally true. That they really happened just as it says in the Bible?
How much of what the Bible says about Jesus and his life do you think is true?

[MineralMan]

1. I think most Christians think those things are true.

Christains and Christinas, though, I'm not sure about. I haven't seen Christina in years, so I don't know her thoughts any more.

[edhopper]

2. DOH!!

[MineralMan]

4. Teehee! See the link below:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218277138

[ollie10]

3. A lot of the Bible was never intended as historical facts

Just sayin'

I guess some Christians believe that, so I will amend my statement to say according to some of the hundreds (thousands?) of iterations believe in literal fundamentalist facts, while many other Christians, myself included, do not believe the Bible was ever meant to be a history lesson.

This may be a poor analogy, but if you read the Grapes of Wrath....it is meant to illustrate history and there are truths in the Grapes of Wrath, regardless of whether the characters were historically correct or whether every scene in every chapter was historically accurate. There is such a thing as symbolism and there are truths in the Grapes of Wrath that are related to what happened on a human level during the depression, but these truths are not limited to whether or not everything in the Grapes of Wrath were historically precise.

I am not saying the Bible is a fictional work like Grapes of Wrath....just merely showing that not everything that tells truths are meant to be historical facts. I am reaching out to literature because people are not so emotionally attached to the subject as religion.

[MineralMan]

5. Which parts are which, then?

Do you know?

[ollie10]

6. You still seem to be caught up in a literalist mind set

Please see my amended post which would address some of that.

[MineralMan]

7. Not at all. I don't believe any of it.

I'm always curious, though, to learn which parts people believe are literal and which are not. I see you're not willing to answer those questions, so never mind. It's sad, though. I've not found anyone who wanted to get specific about that.

As far as your clarification goes, though, The Grapes of Wrath is clearly fictional. None of it is literally true, despite some historical references to similar things. The Bible? Well, I see it as fictional, as well, throughout. Allegorical. Symbolic. Fantastical. Just like all other scriptures I have read.

But, there must be some parts every Christian believes actually happened as described. Sadly, they don't seem to want to reveal which parts.

[ollie10]

10. wow. your tendency to over-generalize is on display!

which christian interpretation do you mean? literalists, fundamentalists, or those who have one of hundreds or thousands of viewpoints?

you have your opinion. and I have mine. The difference between you and me, I recognize that people have a right to their different opinions, whereas others come here on Good Friday, in a discussion board where most people are Christians, and say in your view the entire Bible is fiction. Your sensitivity is lacking.....

[MineralMan]

18. I'm perfectly willing express what I think.

Are you?

[ollie10]

21. I have

[guillaumeb]

39. A common thing here.

Many insist on a literalist mindset.

[ollie10]

33. Geez. Why don't you go to the library

And do some research of biblical scholarship?

If you really want to know and this is not a gotcha question. ....

[MineralMan]

54. I've done that already. I'm interesting in what individual

people think. So far, few have expressed themselves.

[ollie10]

61. Do you think they may not be comfortable

Expressing their views to someone who has already demonstrated that you think every single thing in the bible is fiction? Why bother? I think some just think you wiuld pooh pooh and attack anything they would day. I hope more express their views. I have tried. I no longer am interested in this thread. Have a nice day and i hope you find what you are looking for

[MineralMan]

62. Why would anyone care what I think of their beliefs?

I'm just another person in a discussion group.

[ollie10]

64. I agree. Have a nice day

[Cartoonist]

69. Another post and run

I love it when they say they just want to share their opinion but when you ask them to elaborate, they get defensive, clam up, then say good night.

[Lordquinton]

71. Many attempts to derail the conversation

They don't want discussion, despite the frequent cries for it. They want submission, nothing more.

[Lordquinton]

72. Wow, you sure drew a lot of hate for your question

It's a simple one too. What is it about theists and questions? Seems like their world would collapse if they ever gave a straight answer.

[edhopper]

8. Interesting analogy

Steinbeck did base it on real stories he observed. So these were "real" events, so to speak.
But that still leads us to the supernatural aspects of Jesus' story and how Christians veiw it.

[ollie10]

9. Which Christians do you mean? The fundamentalists? There are hundreds and thousands.....

There is no one single christian belief about the crucifixion or the resurrection. Anyone who tells you different is pulling your leg

[edhopper]

11. my intial post

was a question to Chritians here.
Just curious about different views. Don't think they all believe the same.
Want individual responses, not "what Christians believe".

[ollie10]

13. my view is the historical stuff is pretty much irrelevant

there are truths and ideals and meanings that transcend historical facts, and whether the events were actually true is secondary. Hell, whether there is a god or not is secondary. I try to follow the teachings of Christ the best I can, and it really doesn't make any difference to me whether he is the son of god, whether there is a god, or whether Jesus was historically born or crucified....none of that matters to me. The teachings, the meanings and the truths are still true and they are a guide for my life. If there is a heaven, fine. If not, fine. I live my life to try to make heaven on earth and if there is an afterlive, I will brush up on my trumpet and find a cloud to play on,.

[edhopper]

15. Thanks

[ollie10]

16. You're welcome

And thank you!

[ollie10]

29. Some christians believe what yoy say

Others don't. There is great diversity among Christian thought.

[marylandblue]

12. How do you know what the Bible authors' intents were?

As near as we can tell from early writings about the Bible, it was always taken literally, even if some authors also derived metaphorical meanings.

[ollie10]

14. so you actually believe that when jesus spoke in parables he meant them as historical? wow

you are entitled to your opinion, but it is not mine.

[marylandblue]

17. I did not say that, that it is not the issue, and you know it.

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[edhopper]

19. Of course not

But do you believe Jesus spoke the actual words in the Bible?
Are the stories about Jesus, written by others true, or is it all fictional?
You've told me your view, but this isvthe larger question.

[ollie10]

22. I don't really care about history

In the ense ofwho said what words. That may be iportant to you but I am more interested inthe truths that are trancendant

[marylandblue]

43. I find transcendence in the truths of history and science

What really happened is more important than the fables we tell ourselves. But I realize most people are more interested in fables.

[ollie10]

46. Says the person who cannot respect others

[marylandblue]

48. I have never disrespected you and I am sorry if you feel otherwise.

[ollie10]

26. Some people agree with you

Many biblical scolars do not

Oh well, nice try

[marylandblue]

42. I think almost all scholars agree with me

But I suspect you think I'm saying something different than I am.

[ollie10]

47. Good for you!

[marylandblue]

49. Is that supposed to mean something?

[ollie10]

50. What do you think?

[marylandblue]

51. I think you need to study those transcendent truths a little more

[Major Nikon]

24. I agree, but probably not for the same reasons

I think the authorship of most religious texts are written with the intent of manipulating people for profit or power. Others were no doubt written by some who were successfully manipulated by others.

[Voltaire2]

20. So far no Christian in this thread has

Last edited Fri Mar 30, 2018, 06:49 PM - Edit history (1)

affirmed their belief in the core tenet of their faith, that their god was incarnated as a human being, was executed, and then rose from the dead.

[MineralMan]

23. That seems to be true.

The question has been asked, but no answers being given. It makes one wonder. That would seem to be an essential belief for most Christians. I'm puzzled, somewhat.

[ollie10]

31. Are you really puzzled?

According to jesus, the 2 key things are love and worsiping god. So maybe that might give you a clue. Then there are the beatitudes/sermon on mount. You might find them revealing.

[MineralMan]

55. You don't know me, nor do you know what I have read.

When I was 15 years old, I could recite the entire book of Matthew from memory. So, yes, I'm familiar with it.

[ollie10]

63. This illustrates.

You said you were puzzled about what christians believe. I mentioned the great commandments and the sermon on the mount. Now you go off getting defensive about memorizing a book in the bible. And you wonder why people don't want to tell you their beliefs? Be respectful and listen to people....maybe more will see you as a person they can talk to

[MineralMan]

65. Always good advice to follow, I think.

Yes. Irony is a funny thing.

[ollie10]

27. Well, since that question wasn't what was asked

That might have something to do with it.

[Voltaire2]

35. Oh really?

“If you are Christian do you believe that the story of the crucifixion and resurrection are literally true.”

Odd.

[Major Nikon]

25. Im not a Christian, but I think parts of the bible are true

There probably was someone at the time who had a ministry and was made a martyr by those in power. Beyond that it was simply charlatans who manipulated the story for personal gain and over time they just got better organized and started putting things in writing.

[ollie10]

28. Are you aware when the gospels were written?

[Major Nikon]

30. Which ones?

The canonical gospels were written several decades after the reported death of Jesus and not by those whom they are attributed.

[ollie10]

32. I know that

Jusr asking a question

Why do you assume they were charlitans?

[Major Nikon]

36. Because its considerably harder to assume they werent

I think L. Ron Hubbard is the best example. If someone can get rich inventing a religion in the 20th century, it’s reasonable to assume it was considerably easier in the 1st.

[ollie10]

37. Just give the evidence

I am puzzled why you don't

Need i remind you that this was aprox 2 millenia after jesus?

[Major Nikon]

40. You are asking for evidence of something clearly stated as opinion?

I find that rather funny.

And yeah, I’d also remind you that was around 2 millennium after Jesus and in a time when religious authorities didn’t have virtually complete control over information which was precisely the point.

[ollie10]

45. Ok. Opinion. No evidence

[TomSlick]

34. OK, I'll bite.

Jesus' purpose was to be our best exemplar of God's nature and to give us the assurance that God loves us.

I am not certain what is meant by the nativity or the resurrection. Something extraordinary happened in both cases. If I am accurate in my beliefs, I will know the facts later. In the meanwhile, it will have to be enough that I get the core lesson. If my beliefs are inaccurate, they will have at least helped me to live a better life. I do not seek to impose my beliefs on others. Neither do I criticize those who do not believe as I. To do either would be to violate my first rule to treat others as I want to be treated.

I do not believe that the Bible was dictated by God nor should it be considered history. Rather it was written by fallible people to explain the extraordinary.

The only important thing to know is that God loves us and that Jesus taught and showed us how best to live.

[thucythucy]

38. An excellent answer.

I'm agnostic. I don't know if there is or isn't a God or several Gods or what have you. And I have difficulty believing that any overarching supreme being would much care whether or not I as an individual believed.

But if I WERE to be a Christian, I think what you laid out here would be a very close approximation of what would be my faith.

I would add that an important element of that faith would be a strong commitment to social justice, but that's probably included in your statement of how "Jesus taught and showed us how best to live."

Thanks for a very interesting Good Friday post.

[TomSlick]

41. Thank you.

Social justice is at the core of Jesus' teachings. From what we have in the Gospels, Jesus did not spend a lot of time setting out an orthodoxy. Rather, he taught an orthopraxy of care for the poor, the immigrant, and the powerless.

See, Matthew 25:44-45(RSV)
"Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’"

I admire the honesty and humility of an agnostic. There is an understanding of the limitations of human understanding implicit in agnosticism. I sincerely hope and believe you are wrong and there really a God that cares about both of us.

Peace.

[thucythucy]

52. That is my all time favorite part of the Gospels

I especially like the part about visiting people in prison, since prisoners in our culture are so often vilified as being subhuman.

And peace with be you as well.

[sprinkleeninow]

53. 'Orthopraxis.'

[edhopper]

57. Thanks

I understand you don't know where the truth lies. But in your opinion, do you think Jesus was the Son of God and that he rose from the dead? Trying to clarify the "something extraordinary".
I am not asking you to defend those things as fact, just want to know your sense about them.

[guillaumeb]

44. Far too broad of a question.

[edhopper]

56. Was Jesus crucified

as depicted in the Bible and did he rise from the dead three days later?

[MineralMan]

58. Maybe that's still too broad a question

to be answered by that poster. Many have asked it. No answers have been forthcoming.

[edhopper]

59. Why is it so hard to state

what a person believes?

[MineralMan]

60. Well, in some cases, a guy just doesn't want to be pinned down.

In other cases, people don't want you to know what they really believe.

It can be difficult to tell the difference.

There's a pertinent verse from Paul's letter to the Romans, a verse that most Christians know:

Romans 1:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

In many ways, it is a pivotal verse for Christians.

Another verse from the same letter amplifies this:


Romans 10: 9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Those verses are basic fundamentals of Christianity, as it was spread by the Romans.

[Lordquinton]

70. Sad attempt to belittle the OP

Too scared to actually commit? If you take any part of it true, then are you a literalist?

[Pendrench]

66. Hi edhopper - I am a practicing Catholic, I do believe that Jesus was crucified

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and I also believe in the Resurrection.

As to your question: how much do I believe of what the Bible says about Jesus (and his life), if you asking if I also believe that the miracles attributed to him were true, then - Yes, I also believe that they happened.

Having said that, I realize that others don't hold those same beliefs, and I completely understand why the do not: my beliefs are based on faith, not proven facts.

Thank you for posting these thought provoking questions! It's especially timely this weekend

I wish you well and peace.

Tim

[edhopper]

67. Thanks for the

clear answer.

[Pendrench]

68. You are very welcome.

I imagine that we greatly differ on this topic, but I also hope that perhaps there is some common ground that we can agree on outside the sphere of religion.

I tend not to post much in this forum (or in many forums, actually) but I do read many of the opinions posted here and appreciate the spirited discussions - no pun intended

In any event, thank you again for starting this discussion.

Best wishes -

Tim

[edhopper]

73. Yes

we are both Democrats and most likely our political agendas align.

I really try to keep this forum separate.

I don't bring my disagreements into the General Discussion. There is enough to argue about there without religion mixed in

[Pendrench]

74. Very well said.

In most interactions I try to find common ground (when possible) but I realize and understand why discussions involving religion has the potential to be divisive.

Thank you again - I hope we have the chance to engage in future discussions.

Tim