So, if I'm understanding things correctly, from some people's perspectives,

[MineralMan]

all religion is legitimate, and must not be questioned. Somehow, that makes little sense to me. Even within a major religion, like Christianity, there are off-the-wall wackadoos all over the place, spouting nonsense. Am I to understand that I'm supposed to let nonsense stand without attempting to counter it? Do sane Christians not attempt to counter nonsense from their co-religionists?

Here, in this open forum on Religion, I'm told that anyone who criticizes any religious belief is following some made-up 11th Commandment. So, if I guffaw loudly at some moron who thinks Jesus wants him to pass rattlesnakes around the room, based on a single verse in the Bible, I'm somehow attacking Christians who also think that's nutcase stuff?

If I voice my objections to the fact that Mike Pence wants to convert the entire Country into subjects of his dream of a Bible-based legal system, am I somehow attacking all of Christendom?

Is that what this 11th Commandment nonsense is claiming? If so, then I'm having none of it.

Personally, I don't believe that any deities or other supernatural things even exist. No evidence. So, religion is pretty much nonsensical to me, personally. I don't mind if people who can believe that stuff believe it, but I still think it's nonsense, and I don't mind saying so. That doesn't mean that I insist that others think as I do. I don't do that. I leave that kind of insistence to the religious types.

Still, if someone posts patent nonsense here in the Religion Group, I'm likely to pop in and say I think it's patent nonsense. One person's sacred cow is just hamburger on the hoof as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to go into some protected forum for some religion and tell them they believe nonsense. That would be rude of me. But here, in the only forum that is open for discussion of religion by anyone at all, I do not feel constrained to be silent in the face of nonsense.

So, there it is. 11th Commandment notwithstanding, I have no beef with religion. I just have a beef with illogical nonsense, and I won't be silent when such is posted as god's own truth.

[SWBTATTReg]

1. Illogical nonsense indeed...good post, well spoken. Nt

[Eliot Rosewater]

2. And the patent nonsense posted here or anywhere else wouldnt matter beyond the

entertainment value it possesses if it were not for the fact that most religions find societies where the absurd beliefs they practice become law to one extent or another including here in the United States.

Christianity at it's most perverted level is what this country uses lately to justify all kinds of shit.

And then there are countries where other religions are used to rule and they are even more fucked up. But RESIST the tendency to pick on one of them before we fix this madness we have here at home, I say.

[Permanut]

6. Therein lies the heart of the issue..

"Christianity at it's most perverted level is what this country uses lately to justify all kinds of shit." Theocracies have emerged before, and wreaked great havoc on other societies. If the nutjobs here have their way, we will suffer the same fate. And it is happening.

[ExciteBike66]

3. What I have seen...

"Even within a major religion, like Christianity, there are off-the-wall wackadoos all over the place, spouting nonsense. Am I to understand that I'm supposed to let nonsense stand without attempting to counter it? Do sane Christians not attempt to counter nonsense from their co-religionists? "

I have pointed out some such groups/individuals (e.g. David Koresh). I was told that those instances were "cults" that were different from mainstream Christianity.

I think the major point of difference expressed was that there is an element of "brainwashing" in so-called "cults" that isn't present in mainstream Christianity. This argument ignores the "brainwashing" many Christians receive from their parents/families/communities while children, of course.

[MineralMan]

4. Many Christian Denominations Are Thought to Be Cults by

some other denominations. It's funny, really. Denominationalism often treats "other" denominations as cults. I've even seen Roman Catholicism called a "cult" by some Protestants, despite it being the largest and oldest of mainstream denominations.

Nobody criticizes and condemns co-religionists more than their fellow religionists, actually.

Irony is always funny, it seems to me.

[guillaumeb]

5. Misframing.

Utter mis-framing. But you have the right to your opinion even if it is based on mis-framing.

[marylandblue]

7. Can you provide a detailed critique explaining why it is misframing?

In your own current words. Not a link or a reference to something you said somewhere else. Not an accusation. Not about the 11th Commandment. Can you do this?

[guillaumeb]

8. I could ask the author for cites of what he claims is occurring.

Since the author made the initial claim, the author must have some evidence.

Unless this is simply a statement of opinion with no attached evidence.

[marylandblue]

9. So the answer is no.

[Major Nikon]

11. Of course it's no

It's much easier to just invent your own set of rules and then claim self-righteousness by stating everyone else violates them. Having to coherently explain how those rules are anything but gibberish would make it much more difficult. That exact same system works just fine with religion.

[uriel1972]

13. perhaps it is...

his opinion based on faith and is therefore does not require evidence.

[trotsky]

17. Ding ding ding!

We have a winner!

[guillaumeb]

22. Faith erquires belief, and some non-theists here are vehement

about their own beliefs regarding belief.

[Major Nikon]

25. The idea that atheism requires belief...

is as subliterate as the idea that deists are just another type of theist. Literally speaking they are just another type of non-theist. Welcome to the club, mon amie.

noun
1.
belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism ).
2.
belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=282918

[guillaumeb]

26. Very convincing indeed.

To the choir perhaps.

[Major Nikon]

27. Perhaps you just need a new dictionary

[MineralMan]

28. To which choir are you referring?

If it's the one having a rehearsal tonight, we never talk about the Religion Group. We're too busy singing and getting read for our next performance. That's the only choir I know about. And it's not really real, anyhow.

Still, if you know of an actual choir, I'd like to join. I'm a pretty good bass/baritone voice.

[guillaumeb]

29. The regular one.

It meets 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year.

[MineralMan]

30. Ah, the choir that exists only in your mind...

Yes, well...

How's that small private vocal ensemble you're part of doing?

[Major Nikon]

10. Reread the subject line

If it’s being mis-framed then frame it the way it should be.

The 11th commandment nonsense certainly contains no specifics in that regard. Should all religious ideas be venerated, or can we at least acknowledge some of them are batshit crazy?

Please note all of this is rhetorical because there’s absolutely no hope you will ever provide straightforward dialogue to any question posed.

[Mariana]

12. The "11th Commandment" is a lie.

Criticism is not prohibition, and those who pretend they are the same thing are lying.

[Major Nikon]

14. It's not just a lie, it's an idiotic lie

It pretends disparagement of an idea is not different than disparagement of a class.

[MineralMan]

16. There was no misframing. The framing was my own understanding

of your invented 11th Commandment. That was clearly stated in the post's title. The post, itself, is my opinion, which I can freely frame in any way I find suitable.

Your one-word criticism is both incorrect and inadequate. If you disagree with my understanding, you are perfectly free to attempt to correct that understanding. Simply stating that the post was mis-framed is not doing that, and is incorrect in the first place, since I stated that I would be describing my understanding of this "commandment" of yours.

You do not represent any sort of authority over any matter whatsoever. If you also have an opinion, you are free to state it, but you are on absolutely equal ground with me when you do.

So, I say, "Oh, bother and nonsense."

[trotsky]

20. This is the part that exposes gil for all to see:

If you disagree with my understanding, you are perfectly free to attempt to correct that understanding.

He won't.

He'll just dismiss any requests that he explain himself and engage in actual dialog. And really, from his perspective, why should he bother? He's clearly shown he thinks the many atheists here who have disagreed with him at one time or another are one big faceless "choir" - with the clear implied accusation of sock puppetry.

His goal is to silence the dissenting voices in the ONE forum on DU where atheists are allowed to express negative opinions about religion. He can't do that by engaging in actual dialog, because then he allows the atheists to speak. Instead he creates things - like the "choir" accusation, or the latest sad example being the "11th Commandment" lie - to trivialize real people's opinions and try to shame them into not posting.

I guess one could say he's been successful in a way - by distracting everyone with his horrible behavior, we have less time to comment on religion.

[MineralMan]

21. Oh, well...

And yet, we persist.

[guillaumeb]

23. Utter mis-framing. But you have the right to your opinion even if it is based on mis-framing.

That was the substance of my reply. An admission that you have the right to opinionize, but not the right to recreate what another actually wrote.

[MineralMan]

24. ..

[Mariana]

15. If more sane Christians attempted to counter nonsense

from their co-religionists, I think we'd have fewer Christian wackadoos and much less nonsense being spouted.

[MineralMan]

18. Yes, of course. However, many Christians believe that the admonition

against judging others refers only to judging other Christians. While many feel quite free to judge those who do not profess Christianity, they withhold judgment against fellow Christians, regardless of their behavior. That's an interesting reading of the scriptural admonition, it seems to me, but it is one that appears to be almost universally applied.

In the days of the early Christian church, it might have been possible for people to take their fellow Christians aside and speak privately to them about their faults, as advised in words attributed to Jesus. Today, that is certainly not the case, though.

Of course, those of us who do not profess Christianity are not constrained by Christian dogma and doctrine. We may, and and often do, criticize freely, to the frustration and chagrin of some.

[Major Nikon]

19. It's hard to draw the line between those who are truly delusional and those who are simply deluded

The only reason the story of a holy zombie and poltergeist doesn't seem delusional is because it's so familiar. If it weren't so familiar, it would seem just as delusional as similar mythology.