Religion
Related: About this forumA Simple Guide to Theeing and Thouing for Beginners
I've noticed that many people make hash out of 17th-century English when they attempt to use Thee and Thou and other usages connected to those archaic forms. They mis-conjugate verbs, don't understand the possessive forms of the pronouns and just generally don't sound rightly Biblical and King Jamesish when they write.
As a pedantic person who bristles at such poor diction, I thought I'd offer a link to an easy-to-grasp guide to this arcane and antiquated manner of speech and writing. I do this as a public service, and so I don't have to watch the language of our ancestors being abused.
For thine edification, visit:
https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/volume-4-number-1-2003/teaching-usage-thee-and-thou
SWBTATTReg
(22,112 posts)Couldn't resist!
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)They still exist in a lot of languages especially French and Spanish. In French the use of tu is for those very close to you like relatives or those lower than you. For all others the formal and plural vous is appropriate. To use tu with even a friend is considered a high insult. This was true in English for thee and thou. Then along came the Quakers who started calling everyone thee and thou because we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. It was so offensive to the rest of the English speaking world that the 2nd person singular and familiar pronouns were executed.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)words from multiple languages, it evolved into a simpler grammar and lost a lot of grammatical structure. The second person singular pronouns survived through the 17th century, largely due to the King James translation of the Bible, and still survives among Quakers or Friends and in prayer language for some Protestant denominations.
But, many things dropped out of the spoken and then the written language. The mix of Germanic, French and Celtic vocabulary ended up being too complicated to maintain complicated verb conjugations and noun and adjective declensions. So they disappeared over time. Shakespeare still used some of the second person singular structures, but not all the time and not consistently.
And now, the King James Version of the Bible is being replaced with translations in more modern English quite rapidly. Eventually, nobody will remember how to use those old pronouns at all.
When I learned Russian, through the courtesy of the USAF, I had to learn the grammar of a very highly-inflected language, a language even more complex in its grammar than Latin. In the process, I learned much more about English than I expected to. We still have some of the old forms around in it, but only in fragments. Oxen as the plural of Ox, for example. We herd cows, keep cattle and eat beef, thanks to accretion. We used to use the word "kine" to refer to cattle, as well, but that's gone now. We hunt deer, but eat venison.
English is a wonderful language, but is very irregular, both in its grammar, and especially in its spelling. It even varies widely in its pronunciation. All of that makes it very interesting, though.
Igel
(35,300 posts)And parallels the use of "mister".
A hierarchical society that sanctions large class differences is okay with T/V pronouns. Spanish, for instance, has a four-fold set of pronouns: tu/usted and vosostros/ustedes. Note that "usted" is recent, "vuestra merced", in which lies the roots of the dissolution of the T/V pattern in English.
Plural was for plural entities. "Senores, escucheis!" (Sorry, don't do non-vanilla characters on this computer.) Spanish innovated "usted" for V, kept tu (or went with "vos" for older tu.
In French "vous" and in German "Sie" became resolutely singular, but talking up to the addressee.
English did the same thing. Except that at the same time we became more egalitarian. Everybody became "equal" in some sense. It helped that "ye/you" and "thou/thee" were heading in different directions, phonologically, so we got accusative "you" and too often accusative "thee" as the new nominatives. But just as everybody became plural and it was hard to know who, exactly, was inferior, it became easier to dispose of "thou" except in archaic uses.
Just like "master" was eroded phonologically to "mister" and from there became the all-purpose term of address for males. I grew up aware that "master" was still reserved for minor males, but that gets a lot of pushback by people who not only don't know that system, but can't imagine that system not being somehow racist or offensive. (Honored are the closed-minded, for they shall inherit society, and be thou glad when th'art offended, for of such is the cohort of the blessed.)
It wasn't helped by having the conjugation also go a bit opaque. Take "workest"; that's fine, but that vowel wanted to go away. "Worked" had two syllables and became "workt" in pronounciation. I've heard "workst" pronounced, and it's awkward, but what you expect from the sound changes at the time. "Worked"/"workt" and workedst"/"worktst" become impossible. "Thou worked" is simply wrong.
The declination was gone, the honorific system in flux, and the choice of pronouns a bit confusing (you, thou; you, thee). People went with simpler, not because we like simple--that's a bit too telic for my taste--but because the phonology and sociolinguistics pushed that way. They pushed a bit differently in Spanish and German and French and Italian, because they had different phonologies and different cultural traditions.
Similarly, "we" didn't like having all the sound changes make "isn't" and "hasn't" into "ain't". There was pushback for the standard. But just as "thou" lasted longest where there wasn't a push for prestige, so "ain't" lasted longest where proper speech wasn't a desideratum.
Of course, that story is from the scholarly linguistics literature from the late '80s/early '90s. Who knows what they've redecided must have happened.
mbusby
(823 posts)...could a cat nip if a cat could nip catnip.
sdfernando
(4,930 posts)how do you the present day version of our language evolved?
...maybe, perhaps by abusing the language of our ancestors?
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)But I'm talking about people today trying to use the English of yesterday. That's harder. I'm comfortable with English back to the time of Chaucer. Just trying to help.
sdfernando
(4,930 posts)Social media is having a profound effect on our language even as we speak.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)and I travel back, this will help.
MineralMan
(146,286 posts)All knowledge is worth knowing, even knowledge of the past.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)to post this.
And it was an interesting post.
Permanut
(5,602 posts)when the thumpers of today ascribe 17th century English to Jesus. Thanks for an interesting topic.
Now, for the next lessons, how about a discussion on smiting, begetting and rebuking? Not all at once, of course.