Is the Sense of Wonder Restricted Only to Humans?

[MineralMan]

About 30 years ago, I went out one evening about sunset to a cliff overlooking the Pacific Ocean. It was not far from my house and had a nice trail leading to its edge. I thought I'd go and contemplate the solar system there as the sun set.

I arrived about half an hour before the actual sunset, and sat down to observe that phenomenon. Shortly after I sat down, I noticed that about a dozen western ground squirrels, which have a maze of burrows near that cliff edge, had emerged from their burrows and were sitting on their haunches, looking westward. I scanned the cliff edge, and saw more squirrels, along with a mule deer doe and two fawns, which were also standing near the edge of that cliff, looking west.

At the predictable time, the sun slowly disappeared as the earth turned on its axis. After the horizon completely cut off the view of our local star, I noticed that the squirrels and deer were gone. I found this entire thing very interesting. Why had those animals taken up positions facing west just at sunset? Were they contemplating the same thing I was?

I don't know. We have no way to communicate with those creatures about why they did what they did. Nor can they look into my mind to determine why I was there. I know my reasons for observing the phenomenon, but not theirs. It's easy to believe that they, too, were simply observing the rotation of the earth and its effects, just as I was. The same event happens daily there. Is their observation a ritual or simply something they do at the end of the day for some other reason?

We humans can wonder about such phenomena, so we do. We concoct theories of causes. As time passed in our history as a species, we came to understand that the sun appears to set behind the horizon because our planet is rotating on its axis. Before we understood that, most of humanity believed that the sun was the moving body. Our wonder led us to seek the answer, which we found.

But, do the western ground squirrels wonder? The mule deer? We do not know. They were there. They were clearly watching the sunset, since there was no other reason for them to be there at that specific time, looking in that direction. Why were they there? We don't know that, either, nor can we ask them.

Three mammal species, all engaged in an observation of a natural event. Were we all wondering? Who can say?

[3catwoman3]

1. That sounds like it was a very meaningful experience.

What a delightful interspecies moment that must have been.

I would have loved it.

[MineralMan]

2. Thanks for following the post here.

Yes. It was a marvelous thing to observe. Native Americans once lived in that area - the Chumash. There are signs of their presence everywhere, if you know what to look for. That was also part of my contemplation that day. In their time, I wondered if someone had the same thoughts I had in the same situation. I expect so.

I did go back on other occasions at similar times. The animals were there, too.

[3catwoman3]

3. I think humans have, largely forgotten, or chosen to ignore...

...our connections to our planet and its many wonders.

I participate in a Unitarian Universalist congregation. The 7th and last UU principle is:

Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

[MineralMan]

6. Yes, I agree.

Too often, we separate ourselves from the world around us, and fail to see those connections. For me, observation of things is my key to anchoring myself in the world. Since childhood, I've been walking and observing my surroundings. I'm sort of an amateur naturalist that way. Seeking to understand what I observe has always been my fascination.

Part of that has always been to try to understand the relationships between myself and my surroundings. I mentioned the Chumash people who once inhabited the area in California where I used to live. I saw clear evidence of their time there frequently, which led me to learn more about them and what was known about how they lived.

One day, when walking off trail, I came upon a very old, almost dead oak tree. As I looked at it more closely, I noticed that a carving of a cross had been made on its trunk. That carving had to have been made a very long time ago, since it was faint and was surrounded by scar growth from the tree.

I thought about it for some time. What I finally realized was that it must have been carved by the Spanish explorers who had passed through that are as they followed the Pacific coastline northward. I consulted some old writings they had made from that time, and found a passage that described a mass held in that valley under an oak tree. That had to be it. I had observed the intersection between the original people of that area and the Spanish explorers who changed their world forever, and not in a good way.

Since the tree was not on any trail, nor was it in a place where people often ventured, it had remained there since that time. I contacted a local archaeologist connected with the university I had attended in the area, and described what I had found. I showed him the passage in the Spanish diary. Then, I accompanied him on a visit to that oak tree. He agreed that I had almost certainly found the spot described in those old writings and thanked me for contacting him. He asked that I not say anything about the tree or its location to avoid too many people visiting the location.

Later, casts were made of the carved cross and I understand that something was published about it. I never revisited that location, though, and do not know if the tree is still there.

Observation of our world leads in many directions. It has always been my great pleasure to walk where I live and observe. Sometimes, I have found very interesting things, indeed.

[Voltaire2]

4. Thomas Nagel argues that we can never

know what it is to have the subjective experience of another consciousness in “what is it like to be a bat”. Daniel Dennet thinks consciousness is not some irreducible non physical essence, and that with enough knowledge and data we will be able to understand the experiential side of consciousness.

These days an interesting question reframes Nagel to ask what it is like to be an ai entity. At what point, if ever, will ai devices have experiential sensations?

[MineralMan]

7. I agree with Nagel, but enjoy trying to imagine that experience.

The question and my imaginings about it date back to my childhood, when the question of other consciousnesses first entered my mind. And the question about artificial intelligence is another fascinating thing to contemplate.

Knowing isn't as important as wondering, I think. Wondering is the beginning of a life-long search for understanding.

[c-rational]

5. Following to the religious group, I would say animals, not using the thinking mind, and akin

to nature, exist in a state of unconscious oneness with the whole. This I believe explains why virtually no wild animals were killed in the tsunami disaster of 2004. Being/more in touch with totality, they sense what humans did not. No, I don't think animals wonder.

[MineralMan]

8. Perhaps, but it is very important to understand that we, too, are animals.

We too often forget that. So, I am far from certain that "animals" don't wonder. I am one such animal, and I wonder.

As an aside, though, this is not the "religious" group. It is the religion group, where all manner of discussions about religion take place. Many of us here are not religious at all.

[c-rational]

9. You are correct about humans being animals, and on second thought other animals e.g.

chimps, dolphins etc. are probably consciousness wonder also.

Noted on the religion vs. religious. I gave up the latter and should be more careful with my words.

[Voltaire2]

10. Why do you believe that animals don't think?

[MineralMan]

11. It's a pretty common belief.

Many people appear to believe that humans are somehow separate from animals. It seems important for some to believe that. Clearly, though, we are all products of evolution. Understanding what connects other mammals and vertebrates to us is an important thing that distinguishes some people from other people.

With mammals, particularly, we share almost everything. We have similar skeletons, reproductive systems and even brains. And yet, many of us believe that we are hugely different from other mammals. We need to believe that, it seems. We see other primates, even, and do not observe what makes us part of the same group of mammals.

In many ways, religion has played a large role in our continued belief that we are "superior" to our fellow mammals, in particular, and to other lifeforms in general. For some, denying even evolution is a way to maintain that belief. It requires serious avoidance of observation and thoughtful contemplation to hold such a belief, I think.

It's a shame, since there is much to learn from close observation of our related species. That's why I posted this OP. It is good for us to ask such questions after observation of events like I described, or even as we pet our dog or cat. The answers can be revelatory.

[c-rational]

12. "Think" as in the human trait of compulsive rumination or incessant thought. The thinking I

refer to prevents humans from awakening. Awakening I define as a shift in consciousness in which thinking and awareness separate. I speak to Descartes's error and Sartre's insight. Descartes gave us "I think therefore I am." It took three hundred years for Sartre to realize that the consciousness that says I am is not the consciousness that thinks. When you are aware that you are thinking, that awareness is not part of the thinking. It is a different dimension of consciousness, and it is that awareness that saya "I am.""If there were nothing but thought in you you would not know you were thinking. Unfortunately I believe most people still live, completely identified with thought. The thinking I refer to is not a good thinking. It is the thinking without the awareness that you are thinking.

[thucythucy]

13. I think animals in general are much more conscious than we give them credit for.

I saw a PBS thing (I think it was) a while back on the complex neurology of squids. We know that elephants would appear to mourn their dead. Dogs are incredibly social animals and have senses far beyond our human capacity to gauge. (Some are now being trained to sniff out cancers before they show up on medical tests). Dolphins would appear to have a language, and chimps can learn human sign language.

This idea that humans are somehow at the apex of awareness and cognition (and worth?) is perhaps as deluded as when we used to believe the earth was at the center of the universe. Humanity thus far has been incredibly arrogant with how we treat our fellow creatures, not to mention this planet we all share. I'm afraid the chickens, so to speak, will soon be coming home to roost.

[guillaumeb]

14. Is sentience a necessary component to a sense of wonder? eom

[MineralMan]

15. Depending on your definition of sentience, perhaps.

Since you often have your own definitions of words, I wouldn't dream of assuming what you think sentience is.

Here, take your pick of definitions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

[MineralMan]

16. Self-awareness in dogs.

My lab rescue beagle, Sam, does an unusual thing. When sniffing urine marks left by other dogs, he often sniffs his own parts to check whether he left that mark. We've heard from other owners of lab rescue beagles, and some of those also do that. Our beagle/basset, Dude, doesn't bother with that. If in doubt, he appears to think, "Oh, piss on it. Who cares?"

Not Sam, though. If he finds a mark he left, he doesn't add to it. So, he checks himself, just to be sure of identifying his own marks. Keep in mind that he lived in a small cage the first three years of his life, in a room full of other caged beagles.

Clearly, though, he is aware of the reason for marking, and does that check to avoid remarking when it's not necessary.