Oppression, and what it says about humanity.

[guillaumeb]

Last edited Tue May 14, 2019, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)

I recently wrote a post, one of a series, dealing with the well know oppression that the Chinese Government is directing at the Uighur Muslim minority in eastern China.
One of the responses was as follows:

Wed May 8, 2019, 05:31 AM
Bretton Garcia (816 posts)
75. American law restricts some religions implicitly though

If your religion requires unwilling human sacrifice for instance.

So not ALL religious practices are completely honored. Not if they break the law, and hurt other people.

So when the US and China confront religious, Muslim terrorism? We might honor much of Islam; but not if or where it links to what we consider murder.

Since the Chinese live in very close. even overlapping proximity to terrorist Islamic factions, they have chosen to "re-educate" some Chinese Muslims. Emphasizing one hopes the peaceful side of Islam.

In any case, that is what some have recently done in the West. Though not by camps. But in the media, stressing the peaceful side of all religions.

Edited:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1218&pid=313602

Let us deconstruct this reply, starting here:

So, when the US and China confront religious, Muslim terrorism? We might honor much of Islam; but not if or where it links to what we consider murder.

The poster has apparently decided to classify all of these victims of persecution as terrorists. Thus, providing no actual proof of the truth of his assertion, he can ignore what is being done by the Chinese Government.

Second, we have this bit of creative framing:

Since the Chinese live in very close. even overlapping proximity to terrorist Islamic factions, they have chosen to "re-educate" some Chinese Muslims. Emphasizing one hopes the peaceful side of Islam.

So, having framed all of the Uighur Muslims as members of “terrorist Islamic factions”, we can again ignore the reality of what is happening in China.

And the acceptance of the Chinese Government line that these are “re-education camps” allows the poster to blame the victims for their own persecution.

I have posted numerous articles detailing what is being done to the Uighur Muslims by the Chinese Government. The poster has provided zero evidence to rebut what numerous sources have detailed. The poster has chosen instead to accept the Chinese Government line at face value.

The point of my articles about the brutal oppression of the Uighur Muslims in China is to show how autocrats oppress people. And how autocrats divide people, and demonize factions as a way of facilitating the oppression.

In this case, the autocrats in question are atheists, and the victims are theists.

And that fact, in my view, is why these posts provoke such a strong reaction.

[msongs]

1. catholic church (theists) have been "re-educating" billions of people for 2000 yrs

the body count is probably well into the multiple millions

[guillaumeb]

2. Anything to say about the substance of this post?

If so, please feel free to reply.

[MineralMan]

3. He can feel free to reply in any case.

As can I. As could you, in the thread where that post was made. This thread is a call-out of another DUer, who might not know you are arguing with him. That's not very polite, I think.

Finally, your link leads to a reply written by me, not the poster you called out.

Avez-vous pas de honte?

[guillaumeb]

4. Yes, anyone can reply.

In this case, it was a classic example of whataboutism.

[MineralMan]

7. Yes it was. Why do you do that?

[Major Nikon]

14. The answer to that question has already been given

The RCC's epidemic of child rape on a biblical scale requires a "counterpoint".

[guillaumeb]

5. And the link leads to the original thread.

With the reply # provided.

It is a fuller discussion of the reply.

[MineralMan]

6. The link leads to a reply by me in that thread.

It is an additional call-out. Please do not call me out in a thread in which I am not participating. That is a somewhat rude thing to do do, akin to talking about someone behind his back.

Click your own link.

[guillaumeb]

8. You are incorrect.

[MineralMan]

9. Actually, I'm not incorrect.

Post #70 is a post written by me in that thread. Click the link. I've copied and pasted it from your OP:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218313128#post70

The right thing to do would be to change your link so it did not link to a post of mine in that thread. That you refuse to acknowledge your error, nor to correct it is disturbing to me.

I consider it a call-out and wish you would correct your mistake, rather than denying that it was a mistake. Anyone can click on the link and see that it leads to a post by me, not the post you are discussing in this thread. Please correct that, for integrity's sake.

[guillaumeb]

10. Interesting to me, and disturbing,

is that you ignored what was said by another poster that certainly appears to normalize oppression and blame the victims for the oppression.

So what does that say about your position? Do you agree with the quote by the poster?

[MineralMan]

11. Fix the link and we can talk again.

Don't, and we won't.

Do what's right Monsieur B.

Your link is incorrect and leads to a post of mine rather than to the post you quoted. Fix that, please. Just change #70 to #75. It's easy. I'm sure you know how to edit a post.

[Bretton Garcia]

12. This posting refers to another, and essentially will end up often duplicating it.

So I'd rather just refer readers to the other, earlier post. Where I'm continuing the discussion in the original context.

As far as the above? I'd briefly note in passing that 1) I dont know how Gil knows he's getting the accurate info in China; where information gathering is notoriously hard to do. While 2) I have indeed not earlier bothered to read his other probably overidealistic posts on China. In part for the above reason.

3) My look at the one source in fact, found it very notoriously unreliable (q.v.).

4) Given precisely problems with getting reliable info from the interior of China, and from religious dogmatists, I've chosen to begin using a) the long established, known history of Christianity in China; the opium enslavement of Chinese by Christian soldiers. etc.. Then b) the known military, terrorist history of its Muslim neighbors; including most of Pakistan. Then 3) I've relied on many personal conversations with Chinese and Muslim citizens living in the United States.

In addition I use 4) Cultural Studies, Psychological, and anthropological observations on the general and specific underpinning for religions in general, and specific religions in particular. Relying in part on academic degrees; and my having lived in Muslim countries for five years.

Again, rather than continuing here, with Gil's misquotes or references, links, I'd rather refer readers back the original post.

In closing I'd note that Guil ignores some significant qualifiers in my remarks.

[Bretton Garcia]

13. The original discussion link:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218313128

[guillaumeb]

15. You admitted that you have not read the psots about China.

Thank you for that.

And you attack the posts without having read them.

Thank you for that.

As to the rest of your response, it repeats your earlier, undocumented assertions that border on Islamophobia. And includes some anecdotal evidence, if we can call it evidence, based on these many conversations that you claim to have had.

Sad to read this type of thing at DU.

[MineralMan]

16. You still have not corrected the link in your OP.

It still leads to a post of mine that is not the post you quoted. Why have you not corrected that error?

[Bretton Garcia]

17. I have read the one article, which you presented as chief evidence

It had many problems.

I did not read more

[Bretton Garcia]

18. There's a lot of anti China hysteria out there

Pumped up by Trump and his base. The religious right

I've ignored it for years

[Act_of_Reparation]

19. "Let us deconstruct this reply, starting here:"

Let's not.

[Major Nikon]

20. There's actually a better place to start

When "oppression" is used as a prop to cover for the RCC's culture of child rape, it's not hard to figure out what this is really about.

[guillaumeb]

23. Nonsense.

But using the term serves some purpose for you. That is obvious.

[AtheistCrusader]

21. Why are you linking to MineralMan's post? Do you not understand how links work?

[MineralMan]

22. I'm sure he knows.

[MineralMan]

24. He has changed that link,

but clumsily.

[MineralMan]

25. Thank you for finally changing the link.

However, it now links to compose a new reply to the linked post. How odd.

[Voltaire2]

26. Gods work in mysterious ways.

In this case Loki intervened to fuck shit up.

[MineralMan]

28. Loki's like that.

Or so the story goes. Loki is the deity of human error, apparently. Hilarious stuff!

[guillaumeb]

27. Interesting how you ignore the actual point. eom

[MineralMan]

29. LOL!

But, hey...if I wanted to reply to post #75, you sure made it easy for me, except I don't want to reply to it.

The point was that you posted a link to my post when you were talking about someone else's post. That was the point I raised. Well, now you've corrected that mistake, and have made a different one. If you ask nicely, though, I'll give you step-by-step instructions about how to link to an individual reply in a thread. If you don't, though, I won't, and we can be entertained again.

[guillaumeb]

30. Indeed.

Perhaps the post makes some here uncomfortable about their allies.

[MineralMan]

31. I have no freaking idea what you are talking about, now...

Never mind. Just never mind. It's all there for anyone to see.

[guillaumeb]

32. I am not surprised.

Remember the Giraudoux quote?

[MineralMan]

33. What? No, I don't. I did not add that to my permanent data list.

WTH are you talking about now?

Uffda!