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MineralMan

(146,255 posts)
Fri May 17, 2019, 02:26 PM May 2019

Knowing I will be chided, I'm going to relate a personal anecdote:

During the time when I was transitioning from being a nice young Christian kid to an atheist, I was looking into many things regarding religion and belief. I was 18 years old, out of high school, and on my way to starting my first experiment with being a college student.

I had grown up in a traditional Presbyterian church, and had glommed onto its teachings early on, which were Calvinistic in nature, although not conservative Calvinistic. I had many conversations with the very patient pastor at my home church, asking difficult questions, which he did his best to answer. I had studied a lot about Presbyterian doctrine, which had led that church to offer to pay for four years at a theological college. I might have been a pretty good pastor, people apparently thought.

Well, one day, I asked a question that involved some differences between Presbyterianism and Roman Catholicism. My church's pastor admitted that he couldn't answer my question, since he wasn't completely familiar with that particular doctrine in Catholicism. So, he called a priest he knew who was the primary assistant to the local Catholic Bishop. Anyhow, he arranged for me to visit that priest so I could get the answers I was looking for.

I did visit him. He was an affable man in his mid-30s, with a good sense of humor, and was willing to tolerate an 18-year-old who was asking difficult questions. He dealt quickly with my question about transubstantiation and explained the Catholic doctrine to me in detail. Then, the conversation went in other directions, including my leaning toward not being able to believe any of the supernatural aspects of religion and my declining to attend a theological college. To my surprise, this priest who was a Bishop's assistant said, "That is not surprising, really. I stopped believing in that a few years ago, myself."

I asked how he managed to act as a priest without believing in the divine nature of Jesus and the other two entities of the Trinity. He said, "Well, I minister to my congregation in accordance to the teachings. It is not necessary for me to believe in the supernatural reality of God to do that. If those I minister to believe, that is enough for them. I assist them in their belief, which is enough for me."

I have thought about what that priest said to me many times. He saw his position not as a representative of some supernatural deity, but as a representative of those he served. He "assisted them in their belief." That was his accommodation to his atheism and he seemed quite content to act in that capacity.

That's my anecdote. Here is what I took from it:

That was OK for him, but it wasn't something I would ever be able to do. It helped confirm for me that I made the right decision in not accepting a full scholarship at a theological college. Given my state of near total disbelief at that time, clearly I would not have been acting honestly had I become a pastor. To this day, over 56 years later, I still wonder what accommodations one would have to make to be a priest who did not believe that any supernatural entities actually existed. I could never make such accommodations.

I continue to wonder how many priests and pastors out there might be doing the same thing that priest was doing - serving their flocks, but lacking a personal belief in deities. Few, I think, would admit such a thing. I suppose I caught that particular priest off-guard and in a mood that allowed him to share it with an 18-year-old who was questioning his own belief. Remarkable, really, I think.

The takeaway for me is that religion doesn't necessarily require actual belief in deities. Many have such belief. Others do not. Personally, I cannot follow a religion, because I don't believe that the initial premise that a deity exists is true. If the initial premise is not true, none of it is. I wonder at those who can manage that logical conflict.

28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Knowing I will be chided, I'm going to relate a personal anecdote: (Original Post) MineralMan May 2019 OP
My thoughts then and now would mirror yours exactly, given the same situation (nt) mr_lebowski May 2019 #1
Thanks. It's pretty simple logic, I think. MineralMan May 2019 #6
Thanks for sharing. I suspect there are more than we realize, like the priest you described, SWBTATTReg May 2019 #2
Yes, there is hypocrisy in such pretending. MineralMan May 2019 #5
Televangelists. blueinredohio May 2019 #10
How fascinating, MM. 3catwoman3 May 2019 #3
It sounds like you have found a good place to be. MineralMan May 2019 #4
And a new musical adventure, as I now... 3catwoman3 May 2019 #15
Bonus! MineralMan May 2019 #16
That's not unheard of Major Nikon May 2019 #20
What a long strange trip its been. As for me I believe in G*d even more than ever ... marble falls May 2019 #7
One hopes you do not find yourself on a sidewalk in Bangladesh. MineralMan May 2019 #12
It takes all kinds, brother MM, it takes all kinds. marble falls May 2019 #14
My take as an agnostic Episcopalian wryter2000 May 2019 #8
Ah, yes, OK. I suppose there are many agnostics MineralMan May 2019 #13
Long after being raised as a conservative Lutheran... TreasonousBastard May 2019 #9
That's interesting. MineralMan May 2019 #11
I'm the same way Cartoonist May 2019 #17
That's not really the same, though. Mariana May 2019 #19
I see a major similarity Cartoonist May 2019 #22
You don't admonish them for their vices. Mariana May 2019 #23
Belief is a vice. nt Cartoonist May 2019 #24
I would say faith is a vice, not belief. Mariana May 2019 #25
Many priests do not admonish people who "sin." Sinners go to confession and are absolved. emmaverybo May 2019 #26
I would guess that the priest had convinced himself Mariana May 2019 #18
Could be, but the liturgy of the Mass MineralMan May 2019 #21
I'm curious why you thought you would be chided. N/T Foolacious May 2019 #27
It's a peculiar thing that happens in the Religion Group. MineralMan May 2019 #28

MineralMan

(146,255 posts)
6. Thanks. It's pretty simple logic, I think.
Fri May 17, 2019, 02:44 PM
May 2019

Still, many people do not act on logic, necessarily. As they say in England, "Needs must."

SWBTATTReg

(22,065 posts)
2. Thanks for sharing. I suspect there are more than we realize, like the priest you described,
Fri May 17, 2019, 02:37 PM
May 2019

with his particular beliefs of no supernatural entities, etc. Doesn't really surprise me, though, with all of the hypocrites we see out there, professing a 'profound' belief in the almighty, and then act totally different.

MineralMan

(146,255 posts)
5. Yes, there is hypocrisy in such pretending.
Fri May 17, 2019, 02:42 PM
May 2019

When I see pastors and ministers who seem to be engaged in fleecing their flocks, I always remember that story. I suspect that many who stand at the pulpit of large, prosperous churches have found their accommodation with the conflict. And a rewarding accommodation it can be, too.

3catwoman3

(23,947 posts)
3. How fascinating, MM.
Fri May 17, 2019, 02:38 PM
May 2019

For the last 7 years, I have been a member of a Unitarian Universalist congregation. Small group of about 100 people from a variety of spiritual traditions, and quite a patchwork quilt of current beliefs. It suits my need for open-mindedness. Lots of social justice and climate/planet advocates in this group.

The minister who was at the helm when I first started going there had served that congregation for 25 years, and was much beloved. He was an atheist.

MineralMan

(146,255 posts)
16. Bonus!
Fri May 17, 2019, 03:43 PM
May 2019

My late mother-in-law was in a bell choir. I heard her several times. Very proud of that she was.

Major Nikon

(36,818 posts)
20. That's not unheard of
Fri May 17, 2019, 04:31 PM
May 2019

My father was a UU minister and during his summer sabbatical there was an atheist member of the congregation who would frequently provide the guest sermon.

marble falls

(57,010 posts)
7. What a long strange trip its been. As for me I believe in G*d even more than ever ...
Fri May 17, 2019, 02:53 PM
May 2019

made some missteps but survived and tried to never repeat them.

No regrets for where I am in life and I wouldn't want to change anything I've done because who knows? Things could always be worse. I could wake up tomorrow in Bangaladesh on the sidewalk, equipped skill-wise to live in Marble Falls.

MineralMan

(146,255 posts)
12. One hopes you do not find yourself on a sidewalk in Bangladesh.
Fri May 17, 2019, 03:08 PM
May 2019

It seems quite unlikely, really.

However, there is, no doubt someone who does wake up on that sidewalk. That's interesting to contemplate.

Some people believe in deities. Others do not. Both live on the same planet, so...

wryter2000

(46,023 posts)
8. My take as an agnostic Episcopalian
Fri May 17, 2019, 02:55 PM
May 2019

I was raised Episcopalian and loved my church. I wandered away after high school. I didn't worry about God much and couldn't decide if I had faith in a deity or not. It wasn't important.

Forty years later I decided to go back to church to see how I felt about it. I immediately fell in love with my church. Ten years later, I'm still in love. I get so much joy from being there. Now I even sing in our amazing choir.

So I had to grapple with what I believed. I finally decided I couldn't make myself believe in something because it was convenient. I still don't know if there was something mystical before/behind the creation of the universe. If there was, why would it not still exist? What I did decide, though, was that the world was a more loving place for me and the people around me if I acted as if I did believe.

It's not dishonest. I don't not believe. I just don't know.

MineralMan

(146,255 posts)
13. Ah, yes, OK. I suppose there are many agnostics
Fri May 17, 2019, 03:09 PM
May 2019

in any church setting. Probably some in the pulpits of those churches, as well.

Accommodations. We all make them. Which ones we make has a great deal to do with who we are, I believe.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
9. Long after being raised as a conservative Lutheran...
Fri May 17, 2019, 02:56 PM
May 2019

I found myself at a Quaker meeting and became fascinated at how they had no doctrines. "The Light" is a nebulous term that does not require specific beliefs, but could be called 'understandings".

There are now, of course, at least three varieties of Quakers, and one of them even has ministers and actual services, with psalm readings, sermons, and the rest of the trappings of a "real" church. But it's not them I care about. More traditional "unprogrammed" Friends sit in silence in a sort of meditation, speaking only when the Light moves them.

Atheism is quite common in these meetings, but there is still a quite spiritual attitude that's closer to Buddhism than what we know as Christianity. There are strict codes of ethics, but none of that comes directly from God, who does not speak to us. God may or may not be behind it all, but since nobody has heard from she, he, or it in at least 2,000 years, we have developed our system ourselves.

When I moved to an area where the closest Meeting was about 80 miles away, there happened to be a Universalist church two blocks away. There's singing and sermons, and readings from famous UU's, but no Eucharist and no specific doctrines. We have had a few outspoken atheists, but other than them no one has seen fit to mention belief, which is actually a relief. Even the ministers express no beliefs of their own. Their job as ministers is to minister to our own questions and doubts-- not to inflict their beliefs on us. They suggest, but don't preach.

The military chaplain's corps act the same way. Catholic chaplains minister to Jewish soldiers and Rabbis minister to Muslims. (Or at least that's way it's supposed to work.) The point is not the personal belief of the pastor, but the duty to the believer.

MineralMan

(146,255 posts)
11. That's interesting.
Fri May 17, 2019, 03:06 PM
May 2019

There are many ways to look at religion, to be sure.

As for military chaplains, some are as you describe. Others are not. I had a Jewish chaplain go to bat for me once while I was in the USAF. It had to do with my atheism, which he successfully defended in a situation I found myself in.

But, that's another anecdote, one I have shared here in the past.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
17. I'm the same way
Fri May 17, 2019, 03:58 PM
May 2019

I don't smoke tobacco or drink alcohol, but when a customer comes in to buy cigarettes or beer, I take their money.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
19. That's not really the same, though.
Fri May 17, 2019, 04:16 PM
May 2019

It would be more analogous if you pretended to your customers that you drink and smoke the same as they do, and you actively encouraged them to drink and smoke, and you thought drinking and smoking was good for them.

Cartoonist

(7,309 posts)
22. I see a major similarity
Fri May 17, 2019, 07:10 PM
May 2019

I don't admonish them for their vices, I have my own. I am sympathetic to their desires and steer them to current sales. In the end, I give them what they want and pass the collection plate.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
25. I would say faith is a vice, not belief.
Fri May 17, 2019, 10:17 PM
May 2019

One can believe a thing is true because one has examined evidence and concluded the thing is true. To have faith means to disregard or reject evidence.

But you're right, faith is the one vice that priest lets slide.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
18. I would guess that the priest had convinced himself
Fri May 17, 2019, 04:11 PM
May 2019

that the belief in the supernatural aspects of their religion was somehow beneficial for the people in his congregation, even though he thought those beliefs were false.

MineralMan

(146,255 posts)
21. Could be, but the liturgy of the Mass
Fri May 17, 2019, 05:37 PM
May 2019

Might cause some internal conflicts.

It would have been interesting to talk to him again a couple of decades later, but I didnt have that opportunity.

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