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trotsky

(49,533 posts)
Thu May 30, 2019, 09:09 AM May 2019

Why Democrats Struggle To Mobilize A 'Religious Left'

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-democrats-struggle-to-mobilize-a-religious-left/

For the past four decades, the notion that religious beliefs should guide voters’ decision-making has been largely monopolized by the Republican Party. But the partisan “God gap” hasn’t gone unnoticed by some religious Democrats, who have urged candidate after candidate to make appeals to religious values and beliefs in the hope of turning the “religious left” into a politically relevant force. And as the 2020 Democratic primary ramps up, there’s already speculation that the right candidate could tap a long-dormant reserve of religious energy among Democratic voters.

...And to some extent, forging connections between faith and politics makes sense for Democratic candidates — a majority of Democratic primary voters are religious. But there are several big hurdles facing any Democrat looking to use the language of faith to marshal voters in the primary. For one thing, the Democratic coalition isn’t dominated by a single religious group. And Democrats don’t prioritize religion the way Republicans do — in fact, the Democratic Party has been growing steadily less religious over the past 20 years. Certain groups of religious voters — in particular, black Protestants — will likely play an important role in the primary, and there may be some room for candidates to appeal to religious moderates. But in a diverse and increasingly secular party, religious rhetoric alone may not get the candidates very far.



...And while talking about religion can be a good strategy for gaining media attention, there’s little evidence that it’s translating into actual gains among religious voters — at least, not yet. A Morning Consult tracking poll conducted May 20-26 among Democratic primary voters found that Joe Biden, a Catholic, has a commanding lead among all major religious groups, followed in all but one case by Bernie Sanders,2 who may be the only candidate in the race to say he doesn’t participate in organized religion.

...And even though a substantial number of Democrats are religious, they have come to make up a smaller and smaller subset of the party. Over the past two decades, the share of people in the Democratic coalition who don’t identify with any religion doubled, from 14 percent in 1998 to 28 percent in 2018, according to the General Social Survey. The result is that today’s Democratic Party is increasingly secular, which complicates and limits traditional forms of faith outreach. “This emerging group of secular Democrats coexists a little uneasily with the more religious wing of the party,” said David Campbell, a political science professor at Notre Dame and the coauthor of “American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us.” “It’s a sizeable portion of the electorate to ignore, but I think the party has yet to figure out how to appeal to these people.”
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Why Democrats Struggle To Mobilize A 'Religious Left' (Original Post) trotsky May 2019 OP
As an atheist, I want religion completely out of government. MineralMan May 2019 #1
As a Buddhist, I want the same -- except vlyons May 2019 #2
While it is true that many see atheism as amoral, MineralMan May 2019 #3
I agree, but even as an atheist myself trev May 2019 #27
Yes, of course. Individual beliefs are just fine. MineralMan May 2019 #31
As I said, I agree. trev May 2019 #39
"This emerging group of secular Democrats coexists a little uneasily with the more religious wing" marylandblue May 2019 #4
Indeed we do. trotsky May 2019 #6
It's perfectly understandable, though I don't believe it's justified. marylandblue May 2019 #7
They are indeed coalitions. trotsky May 2019 #8
No need for one group to "cater" to another. marylandblue May 2019 #10
Oh really? That's not what it sounds like you are saying. trotsky May 2019 #16
Sure, isn't that what we are talking about? marylandblue May 2019 #20
Nearly half of the progressive bloc doesn't give a shit what Jesus said. trotsky May 2019 #21
You were just complaining about religious people telling you to shut up. marylandblue May 2019 #24
Oh they can speak all they want. trotsky May 2019 #28
I don't think anyone on the religious left want a platform based on religion marylandblue May 2019 #30
"I don't think anyone on the religious left want a platform based on religion" trotsky May 2019 #33
Yes, there are people who think that, but feeding the poor is a standard progressive position. marylandblue May 2019 #34
"Is there any religious left leader who takes a non-progressive position because of religion?" trotsky May 2019 #36
I'll have to research that a bit more, but I did find this marylandblue May 2019 #38
She wanted more restrictions on abortion. That's not a progressive position. trotsky May 2019 #40
I don't know what she means by "more restrictions." marylandblue May 2019 #41
OK, you're gonna dig in. That's fine. trotsky May 2019 #42
I didn't say "progressive orthodoxy" was good or bad, and I'm certainly not calling myself smart. marylandblue May 2019 #43
Okey doke. trotsky Jun 2019 #45
I'm sure you don't, which is why I don't talk about it on DU. marylandblue Jun 2019 #48
Well, that and talking about it on DU demonstrates... trotsky Jun 2019 #59
I don't oppose reproductive rights. And I didn't tell you what I believe. marylandblue Jun 2019 #64
You said you favored more restrictions on abortion. trotsky Jun 2019 #66
I said that I MIGHT refuse to rule out restrictions until I got more details. marylandblue Jun 2019 #67
The fact that you would even consider restricting abortion rights is pretty repulsive. trotsky Jun 2019 #68
Men have uteruses in the game too, and I did have to face this decision marylandblue Jun 2019 #69
Okey doke. trotsky Jun 2019 #70
Huh? You have a problem with how I run my personal life too? marylandblue Jun 2019 #71
But your authority does end there. MineralMan Jun 2019 #72
I didn't say anything about authority. marylandblue Jun 2019 #73
No, you didn't. So what would be your input into MineralMan Jun 2019 #74
That's between me and her forever. End of story. marylandblue Jun 2019 #75
As you say... MineralMan Jun 2019 #76
Well in terms of this thread, in general there is no such thing as a unlimited right. marylandblue Jun 2019 #79
And yet, people jump off bridges rather frequently. MineralMan Jun 2019 #81
I understand all that which is why this argument is mainly theoretical. marylandblue Jun 2019 #83
It's a WOMAN'S CHOICE. trotsky Jun 2019 #77
Now you have a problem with how an actual woman made an actual choice. marylandblue Jun 2019 #78
OK then. trotsky Jun 2019 #80
No, i said I MIGHT be open to restrictions in some cases. marylandblue Jun 2019 #82
Good that you are backtracking. trotsky Jun 2019 #84
This is the first thing I said about it marylandblue Jun 2019 #85
Wow, you are trying really, really hard. trotsky Jun 2019 #86
Edited title: previous version of this post misunderstood your response. marylandblue Jun 2019 #87
OK, so you've basically just restated yourself multiple times. I don't know why. trotsky Jun 2019 #88
I didn't know what you meant by "keep digging." marylandblue Jun 2019 #89
Discussion about what? trotsky Jun 2019 #90
Discussion about our differing opinions. Which has been known to happen on DU from time to time. marylandblue Jun 2019 #91
How exactly am I mischaracterizing your opinion? trotsky Jun 2019 #92
False. I am not willing to add "more" restrictions to the present ones.. marylandblue Jun 2019 #93
That's not at all what you said in post #41. trotsky Jun 2019 #94
First, don't tell me what my intentions are. Second, if I make a mistake, I admit it. marylandblue Jun 2019 #97
I'm not curious about why you are willing to impose restrictions on a woman's right to choose. trotsky Jun 2019 #98
That's all we need Cartoonist May 2019 #5
What exactly are you "letting" happen or not happen? marylandblue May 2019 #13
A takeover Cartoonist May 2019 #15
So you won't vote for anybody who says "God" too much? marylandblue May 2019 #18
I might not Cartoonist May 2019 #25
I don't know of any candidates on the left who "puts God before country." marylandblue May 2019 #29
I might Cartoonist May 2019 #32
All candidates make a bet. Buttigieg is betting more people will like his religious talk marylandblue May 2019 #35
How's about we mobilize the nones instead? Voltaire2 May 2019 #9
Good point, but who is this "we" you speak of? marylandblue May 2019 #11
See the headline of the op. Voltaire2 May 2019 #12
So nobody is showing up at the Religious Left Prayer Breakfast? marylandblue May 2019 #14
No, the nones are expected to shut up and let the "religious left" do what they want. trotsky May 2019 #17
Who is telling you to shut up? marylandblue May 2019 #19
Oh that's cute. trotsky May 2019 #22
Thanks for the slack, I do need it. marylandblue May 2019 #23
Religious right have a shitload of money. Nun's residence down the road from me, basically a mansion applegrove May 2019 #26
Or... Act_of_Reparation May 2019 #37
From the article: guillaumeb May 2019 #44
You grasp onto whatever straws you want, g. trotsky Jun 2019 #46
And I understand your need to believe your narrative. eom guillaumeb Jun 2019 #47
Tell me, do you try to remind all minorities of their "place," trotsky Jun 2019 #49
I understand your need to beleive in your narrative. guillaumeb Jun 2019 #51
So why do you only tell non-believers to mind their place? trotsky Jun 2019 #52
Why do you feel the need to reframe what people actually say? guillaumeb Jun 2019 #53
I didn't reframe a thing. trotsky Jun 2019 #54
So you are unaware of what you do? guillaumeb Jun 2019 #55
You're trying to gaslight again. trotsky Jun 2019 #56
And you are attempting to control the narrative guillaumeb Jun 2019 #57
I am merely pointing out what you are saying. trotsky Jun 2019 #58
No, you are attempting to control the limits of the narrative. guillaumeb Jun 2019 #60
Where's the straw man, g? trotsky Jun 2019 #61
Even here, you must frame to attack. guillaumeb Jun 2019 #62
Explain your position. Prove me wrong. trotsky Jun 2019 #63
This message was self-deleted by its author Mariana Jun 2019 #65
Not even all that great of a straw to grasp Major Nikon Jun 2019 #50
And chop that in about half, if you bother to read the next section about how important religion is AtheistCrusader Jun 2019 #95
An unsupported assertion. guillaumeb Jun 2019 #96
Actually I did support it, contingent upon you actually reading the article. AtheistCrusader Jun 2019 #99

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
1. As an atheist, I want religion completely out of government.
Thu May 30, 2019, 09:39 AM
May 2019

It should play no role whatsoever in laws or governance. When religion comes into play, there is no equality.

vlyons

(10,252 posts)
2. As a Buddhist, I want the same -- except
Thu May 30, 2019, 09:58 AM
May 2019

many Americans equate atheism with amorality. They cannot conceive that it is entirely possible to be an atheist and a deeply moral and compassionate person. I want to hear politicians talking about moral values in a non-religious way -- especially talking about corruption of politicians and political processes. I don't want to hear that my country was founded by Christians, when many of our founding fathers weren't Christians, but Deists and Freemasons, who abhored established religion. Our country was founded during the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason and beginnings of science.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
3. While it is true that many see atheism as amoral,
Thu May 30, 2019, 10:00 AM
May 2019

that is based on the erroneous belief that only religion can create moral values.

Clearly, that's not true.

trev

(1,480 posts)
27. I agree, but even as an atheist myself
Fri May 31, 2019, 12:48 AM
May 2019

I don't necessarily have a problem with Democrats embracing their religion. That religion is going to influence their actions regardless of whether or not they openly refer to it. My concern with the Republican version of religion is that they want to force everyone--including their fellow Christians with whom they disagree--to buckle under and serve that religion. That is what is unconstitutional.

Meanwhile, we secularists continue to make gains among the belief systems of the nation. I think that trend will increase as time goes on.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
31. Yes, of course. Individual beliefs are just fine.
Fri May 31, 2019, 09:20 AM
May 2019

Basing government decisions on them is not fine. Imposing one's religious beliefs on others is not fine. I don't want to hear about them from people in government at all.

trev

(1,480 posts)
39. As I said, I agree.
Fri May 31, 2019, 01:10 PM
May 2019

I have been fighting the growing religion-in-government movement for many decades. It has been the focus of my political activity.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
4. "This emerging group of secular Democrats coexists a little uneasily with the more religious wing"
Thu May 30, 2019, 12:59 PM
May 2019

We see that problem right here on DU.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
7. It's perfectly understandable, though I don't believe it's justified.
Thu May 30, 2019, 03:34 PM
May 2019

Political parties are coalitions. Various parts of the coalition will always have have competing perspectives and therefore there will be friction among them.

Not justified because the coalition needs to work together, especially at the present moment. The religious left and the secular left have far more to unite them politically than disagree about. If the coalition is successful now, we could achieve a lot together. Like many successful coalitions, it may eventually come apart, but that would mean our interests have diverged so much that the coalition is no long worth it.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
8. They are indeed coalitions.
Thu May 30, 2019, 03:44 PM
May 2019

And look at the relative size of the non-religious in the Democratic coalition.

Which group will need to cater to which going forward?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
10. No need for one group to "cater" to another.
Thu May 30, 2019, 04:13 PM
May 2019

It's always an ongoing negotiation. At the moment we should set aside any differences, and I don't see any major policy differences anyway right now.

There hasn't really been an organized religious left outside the AA community. Some are trying to create one now. If they are not successful, you have nothing to worry about. If they are, there will be an ongoing negotiation. Initially it wouldn't be difficult, we all want healthcare, environmental protection, clean government etc. Assuming we get those things, other issues will come forward and then it might get tense.

You expect religion.to continue to weaken in future years, so the maybe the religious left won't last long anyway. On the other hand, changing social conditions might strengthen religion. History isn't a straightforward progression, it's more of a zigzag.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
16. Oh really? That's not what it sounds like you are saying.
Thu May 30, 2019, 05:37 PM
May 2019

How about we base our coalition on shared progressive principles and goals, and not religion?

Is that such a crazy idea?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
20. Sure, isn't that what we are talking about?
Thu May 30, 2019, 06:07 PM
May 2019

Is your problem that some people are progressive because Jesus says so, or is your problem that a group of those people show up at the polls in a church bus? Or maybe it's just that they say "Jesus said so" outside of a church?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
21. Nearly half of the progressive bloc doesn't give a shit what Jesus said.
Thu May 30, 2019, 06:09 PM
May 2019

They're either non-religious, or non-Christian.

Perhaps the focus should be on building the coalition without Jesus talk.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
24. You were just complaining about religious people telling you to shut up.
Thu May 30, 2019, 07:20 PM
May 2019

Are you now telling religious people to shut up? What happens if they don't?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
28. Oh they can speak all they want.
Fri May 31, 2019, 08:34 AM
May 2019

Let's just not base our platform on what people think Jesus wants. I've been damn consistent saying that the entire time.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
30. I don't think anyone on the religious left want a platform based on religion
Fri May 31, 2019, 09:19 AM
May 2019

Rather their God always seems to want a good progressive platform. It's intellectually convenient for them, but if it gets them to the polls, I don't mind. I view the religious left as a motivational thing for religious left-leaning people who might otherwise not volunteer or vote. I don't know how many of these people there are. Not many in the past, but after Trump, maybe there are more.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
33. "I don't think anyone on the religious left want a platform based on religion"
Fri May 31, 2019, 09:43 AM
May 2019

I don't see any basis on which to make such a sweeping statement. There most certainly are people who think the reason we need to feed the poor is because Jesus did, or told us to.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
34. Yes, there are people who think that, but feeding the poor is a standard progressive position.
Fri May 31, 2019, 09:47 AM
May 2019

And maybe I should limit myself to leaders, because among the masses you could find anything. Is there any religious left leader who takes a non-progressive position because of religion?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
36. "Is there any religious left leader who takes a non-progressive position because of religion?"
Fri May 31, 2019, 11:10 AM
May 2019

This thread is still in the first page of this group:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218314242

"...I believe the sacred personhood of an individual begins before birth and continues throughout life, and I believe that sacred personhood is worth protecting, whether it’s tucked inside a womb, waiting on death row, fleeing Syria in search of a home, or playing beneath the shadow of an American drone." -- Rachel Held Evans

Granted, she recently passed away, but she was honored right here on DU as a religious left leader.

In fact, there are quite a few religious leaders on the left who have taken non-progressive positions on abortion, homosexuality, etc. because of religion. I can find more if you'd like.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
38. I'll have to research that a bit more, but I did find this
Fri May 31, 2019, 11:41 AM
May 2019

Held Evans didn't believe in making abortion illegal, she wanted to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and therefore the number of abortions. I agree with that position generally.

She may not sound pro-choice enough for you here. She seems to like "safe, legal and rare," which was big in the 90s, and I thought was good, but we don't hear so much about it anymore. Maybe I'm behind the times with that too.

https://www.vox.com/2016/8/4/12369912/hillary-clinton-pro-life

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
41. I don't know what she means by "more restrictions."
Fri May 31, 2019, 02:08 PM
May 2019

And because I might refuse to rule out such a thing until I get more details, maybe I'm not a progressive either. Perhaps I'm really a moderate. Not the first time I've broken with progressive orthodoxy myself.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
42. OK, you're gonna dig in. That's fine.
Fri May 31, 2019, 02:29 PM
May 2019

She still wanted more restrictions. Her own words say so: "So even though I think abortion is morally wrong in most cases, and support more legal restrictions around it..."

We already have a number of legal restrictions. Too many, according to lots of women. Wanting more is NOT a progressive position. At all. But clearly you're so committed to your argument now that you're insinuating I'm some kind of liberal extremist enforcing "progressive orthodoxy" by not wanting more restrictions on a woman's right to choose.

I will now note that I successfully answered your question, which again was:

"Is there any religious left leader who takes a non-progressive position because of religion?"


You yourself are now admitting Held Evans took a non-progressive position, because you too are embracing it and calling yourself a moderate for doing so. Only now you're saying "progressive orthodoxy" is bad, and you're smart to oppose it.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
43. I didn't say "progressive orthodoxy" was good or bad, and I'm certainly not calling myself smart.
Fri May 31, 2019, 04:51 PM
May 2019

Last edited Fri May 31, 2019, 05:43 PM - Edit history (1)

I call myself progressive, but there are certain issues I don't get into often. Abortion is one of them. That's because I have certain views that MIGHT be interpreted as less than 100% supportive of all abortion rights in all cases. Like I side it MIGHT be interpreted that way, not that it is that way, but I could easily see a long controversial thread about something I didn't say and don't mean.

So rather than argue with you about whether a position I don't hold is actually progressive or not or if one could still be a progressive if one only agrees with the progressive position 9 out of 10 times, I basically conceded she might not be a progressive and observed that might mean I'm not either.

That doesn't mean I'm smart. It just means I'm willing to entertain or might even believe certain ideas that most progressives would reject out of hand.

This is not the first time in the last few years I've considered whether I'm still a progressive and not the only issue on which I might not be in sync with the progressive movement on. I started off life as a moderate, became more liberal as I got older, but lately it seems the progressive movement is moving on without me. That's okay with me. My disagreement or concern on certain issues doesn't mean I'm right and you are a liberal extremist.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
59. Well, that and talking about it on DU demonstrates...
Tue Jun 4, 2019, 02:02 PM
Jun 2019

that you oppose the reproductive rights part of our platform. That's dangerous territory.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
64. I don't oppose reproductive rights. And I didn't tell you what I believe.
Tue Jun 4, 2019, 10:27 PM
Jun 2019

Other than it might be misconstrued and result in a pointless argument in which I'm expected to defend something I don't actually believe.

I tend to avoid political arguments on DU. I have other places I can go for political arguments. I don't see a point to arguing with political allies.

On opposing part of a platform because it is "dangerous territory." Well that's what I mean by "progressive orthodoxy." I don't mean orthodoxy in any religious sense. I mean it in the sense that certain ideas are not to be questioned because it's dangerous to do so. Before you say I am trying to hurt women or something like that, remember I didn't tell you what my views on reproductive rights are, so you have no way to determine if they would actually hurt anyone or not.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
67. I said that I MIGHT refuse to rule out restrictions until I got more details.
Wed Jun 5, 2019, 05:37 PM
Jun 2019

And that considering such a thing could be taken as less than 100% supportive of abortion rights. Which is pretty much how you took it.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
68. The fact that you would even consider restricting abortion rights is pretty repulsive.
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 08:38 AM
Jun 2019

But whatever, you do you. You've got a uterus in the game, right?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
69. Men have uteruses in the game too, and I did have to face this decision
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 09:00 AM
Jun 2019

in cooperation with a woman.

I consider a lot of things, some much more repulsive than that. I follow my own thinking wherever it leads me. It's not possible for me to be repelled by a thought.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
71. Huh? You have a problem with how I run my personal life too?
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 11:47 AM
Jun 2019

I never thought of abortion as just a "women's problem." My responsibility does not end at the tip of my penis.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
72. But your authority does end there.
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 12:15 PM
Jun 2019

You have none beyond over yourself. That's where many men go wrong. Think about it.

You can determine whether or not to risk impregnation, but if you cause a pregnancy, that's the end of your authority, but not your responsibility. It is up to the woman to decide whether to continue being pregnant or not. You get no authority over her either way.

It's really simple. Every person gets to make his or her own health decisions. Nobody else has any right to make those decisions for someone else, nor to demand anything with regard to them. Period.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
74. No, you didn't. So what would be your input into
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 01:27 PM
Jun 2019

such a decision? What do you think your "responsibility" should be? I know what it would be if there was a birth and you were the father. But what would your responsibility be with regard to the woman's decision whether or not to carry the child to term?



MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
76. As you say...
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 01:52 PM
Jun 2019

But we were talking in a more general sense, given the subject of the thread. If you don't want to discuss the issue in general, that's OK, too, but the thread goes on.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
79. Well in terms of this thread, in general there is no such thing as a unlimited right.
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 03:35 PM
Jun 2019

There are certain things you can't do with your body, or that we don't allow a doctor to do, or at a minimum would prevent you from doing if we saw you do it.

We wouldn't allow you to jump off a bridge, for example, even though it is your body. Instead, we'd physically prevent you and take you to a mental hospital. We wouldn't allow a doctor to push you off a bridge as a "medical procedure."

So while I do believe in reproductive rights, I don't believe in an unlimited right to do whatever you want with your own body. This is consistent with Roe v. Wade, which is based on the right to privacy, but recognizes a government interest in the third trimester. I don't support any current or proposed restrictions meant to get around Roe v. Wade or create test cases. I don't support the Hyde Amendment.

I MIGHT support certain restrictions consistent with the letter and spirit of Roe v. Wade, but it would depend on what they are. There are none on the table right now, so it's basically moot.

This is the most I've said about abortion in years. Only broke my own rule today in sympathy with Biden and our coincidental discussion here. I don't agree with his position, but I understand his instinct for a middle path. It's just not politically possible these days.

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
81. And yet, people jump off bridges rather frequently.
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 03:47 PM
Jun 2019

Some states allow voluntary euthanasia, as well, as a choice for their citizens, under certain circumstances.

The number of third-trimester abortions that take place is very low, and almost always in cases where the fetus will not survive after birth, due to defects. It's very, very rarely done as a contraceptive measure. But, when it is needed, it is needed, for many reasons. Absolutely forbidding such abortions is heartless and stupid. There are a number of fatal conditions a fetus might have that might not be detected until late in the term. Such abortions are heart-wrenching for the woman, and are not done except when truly unavoidable, in almost all cases.

The current religious-right-inspired anti-abortion bills that are passing in red states have nothing to do with that at all. They are about making ANY abortion next to impossible. Some even eliminate rape, incest, and the mother's health as reasons.

A couple of states have actually passed laws that give the biological father the same rights a the woman, and the ability to forbid aborting the fetus. Those laws have not withstood court review, but who knows when that will no longer be the case.

I cannot get pregnant. So, I will never have to make such a decision. Only those who are pregnant can make such a decision. It's not up to me in any way, even if I fathered the fetus, which I have never done in my life.

In my opinion, the government has no business whatever with determining what a pregnant woman can or cannot decide about the fetus she is carrying. Period. Currently, Roe puts some limits on what can be controlled, but some individual states have very relaxed limits regarding late-term abortions.

As a man, it is none of my business, frankly. I do not believe it is any of the government's business, either. As long as the fetus is not born, it is the woman's decision. Period. I have no say in it at all, and neither should a bunch of white men in a state legislature.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
83. I understand all that which is why this argument is mainly theoretical.
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 07:15 PM
Jun 2019

It would be politically and practically unwise for any Democrat to make any new restrictions or not support the rollback of existing ones. The very minefield Joe Biden stepped into.

It wasn't like this 20 or even 10 years ago, but now it is. My position did not change and apparently, neither has Biden's, but the left has moved on. Which may make Biden and me fossils, but so be it. I'm not running for President so I don't mind being a fossil, but he is and he has to get through the Democratic primary first. I'll be voting in the primary for someone who agrees with you on abortion, and there probably won't be a Democratic candidate in my lifetime who agrees with me.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
78. Now you have a problem with how an actual woman made an actual choice.
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 02:57 PM
Jun 2019

So women's choices are fine with you in theory, but when a real life woman chooses certain things in private, you have a problem with what she did. You also have a problem with what an actual man does in relation to what an actual woman does.

"It's alright honey, it's your choice, and me, I'm a man, so I don't give a shit what you do." Is that how you think these go? Is that how you treat the women in your life? You can do that if you want to, that's your choice too, but I don't know any women who want that. Doesn't mean they don't exist, I just don't know any. Maybe they just don't want to know me either.

Coincidentally, some women now seem to have a problem with Joe Biden, whose difficulties today illustrate the problem with this discussion. I will tell you I'm actually further left than he is on abortion. If I'm still digging, he fell in the hole.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
80. OK then.
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 03:37 PM
Jun 2019

I don't know why you are claiming I said the exact opposite of what I did, but I suspect it's to try and turn the tables and distract from the fact that you are open to increasing restrictions on abortion, and I am not.

It's the woman's choice.

Keep digging.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
82. No, i said I MIGHT be open to restrictions in some cases.
Thu Jun 6, 2019, 06:47 PM
Jun 2019

Enphasis on the MIGHT, in case you missed it, and I'll repeat it so it's not hidden. I MIGHT be open to restrictions in some cases. Clear?

I hold this position, in part (as in not completely, but only in part) due to my personal experience with actual people with actual uteruses. Not 4 billion other uteruses, who somehow have a say in my personal affairs and opinions, but an individual in my own life who has a uterus, said something was my business and I agreed. In her own life. Imagine that. Without consulting with NARAL.

And also as a consequence of my personal experience, any man, regardless of his stance on abortion who thinks this issue does not affect his life either has never been there or is completely unfeeling.

Likewise, any woman who thinks having a uterus gives her some special insight into what other women think about their own uteruses is totally clueless.

Which is why there are men such as yourself who support women's rights, and women such as Phyllis Schafly who did not. Because women's rights are not just for women, they are also for men who care about women. Actual women, that is. Not political cardboard cutouts.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
84. Good that you are backtracking.
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 08:33 AM
Jun 2019

But bad that you're still willing to put more barriers in the way of a woman's ability to choose.

Keep digging if you wish.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
85. This is the first thing I said about it
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 09:41 AM
Jun 2019

"I don't know what she means by "more restrictions."
And because I might refuse to rule out such a thing until I get more details, maybe I'm not a progressive either. "

I am not sure what you think the practical difference between that and "MIGHT consider," but I promise you the only intended difference is emphasis, and I hoped, clarity. Perhaps if you told me what you thought was the difference, I might be able to explain it better.

I recognized you wouldn't agree and I am out of step with the progressive movement on this.

I am not sure what hole you think I'm digging here, but whatever. Maybe you think I need the lurkers here to agree with me? I don't. It wouldn't be the first time I was the only person in the room to hold a position, and it won't be the last.

Do you think my position, cruel, arrogant, misogynistic or extreme? You are free to think that. Labels don't bother me. They are useful, but they are just labels.

For me, it really just comes down to agreeing with Roe v. Wade, which theoretically allowed some restrictions, but disagreeing with every right wing restriction used to chip away at Roe.

Roe v. Wade based itself in the right to privacy. I agree with that and I am sure you do to. But progressives have gone beyond that into the "unlimited right to bodily autonomy." I'm not going there because I don't believe in ANY unlimited rights (i. e. all rights are subject to "reasonable" restrictions, TBD case by case).

l also don't believe bodily autonomy trumps all other considerations, which is why I believe in forced vaccinations.

I also don't believe you need to have a uterus to have an opinion on this, just I don't need to have a cervix to have an opinion on PAP smears. I can't think of a single other case where anatomy dictates the right to have an opinion.
I actually label that sexist, since it implies that women SHOULD think their anatomy controls their decisions and there is something wrong with them if they don't. It's also very unrealistic, as the existence of anti-choice women will attest. The left finds such women confusing, but I don't. That's because it's obvious that anatomy doesn't dictate opinion.

If you have some substantive objection to all this, I'd like to hear it. If you think I'm digging some kind of hole, maybe you can explain that? If it's just that I'm standing out here by myself, with an unusual opinion formerly shared by a presidential candidate and a dead woman, that's no big deal to me. I've got plenty of unusual opinions. It's a consequence of thinking for yourself and not with the herd.

And if you think I've changed my opinion or am retreating from it, I promise you I am not. I'll even take responsibility for failing to communicate my position accurately and answer any questions you may have to clarify further. If for some reason, I change my mind during this discussion, I'll say so in plain language, not by implication and not when you say I've "retreated."

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
86. Wow, you are trying really, really hard.
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 09:45 AM
Jun 2019

That's good, though. It's good thing to be ashamed of the position that you are willing to put more restrictions on a woman's right to choose.

Keep digging.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
87. Edited title: previous version of this post misunderstood your response.
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 10:14 AM
Jun 2019

Last edited Fri Jun 7, 2019, 11:57 AM - Edit history (2)

The first sentence of post 85 is a quote from an earlier post, which was how I stated my oiginal opinion. The title of 85 is an intro to that. The whole point of post 85 is that I AM NOT changing my opinion, and I take responsibility for any impression you may have that I was, due to my own limited communication abilities.

I am not ashamed. I just don't believe in arguing with my political allies on hot button issues, and it's whole different discussion when arguing with the right.

I don't come to DU for political argument, I have other places on the internet for that, places where there is much more diversity of opinion.

I do make exceptions on DU from time to time, as I did right now. If I were REALLY ashamed, I would have said nothing, and you'd never know the difference.

But what's the point? I think we are having a discussion and you just keep saying I am digging a hole. If that's all you have to add to the discussion, then have it your way. I'm working on a construction site and you are the guy standing around doing nothing

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
88. OK, so you've basically just restated yourself multiple times. I don't know why.
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 12:31 PM
Jun 2019

We've established that you are not opposed to increasing restrictions on a woman's right to choose abortion. So what are you still going on about? The hole you are digging is a metaphor for the amount of work you are doing trying to pretend like what you believe isn't really a big deal. But the more you dig, the more of a big deal you are confirming it to be, otherwise you'd be content to let this rest.

How much more do you want to type to try and convince a site full of people who are in favor of abortion rights that adding some more restrictions to those rights might be A-OK? That's what I mean by telling you to keep digging.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
89. I didn't know what you meant by "keep digging."
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 02:56 PM
Jun 2019

So I continued, thinking you were misunderstanding something and/or wanted to continue discussion. Furthermore you kept saying I was changing my tune, while I was telling you I wasn't. My bad.

"Not a big deal." -- Whatever. That's a matter of opinion. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I was just having a discussion. I didn't know you prefer repetitive cliches.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
90. Discussion about what?
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 03:21 PM
Jun 2019

I expressed extreme disappointment that you are open to further restricting a woman's right to choose abortion.

You've done nothing but insist, more and more defiantly, that despite you being a man, your opinion is important when it comes to a woman's own bodily autonomy.

Thus, why I was happy to allow you to keep digging.

Are you done yet? Or do you want to keep going?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
91. Discussion about our differing opinions. Which has been known to happen on DU from time to time.
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 03:34 PM
Jun 2019

But you are not interested in discussion, you are interested in mischaracterizing my opinion and scoring points. You did get it partially right, so that counts for something. You also got it partially wrong and you seem to like it that way. I guess it makes you feel better about yourself to listen to a misogynistic fascist like me. It really doesn't get any worse than that, so you should feel great about yourself now.

Keep digging.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
92. How exactly am I mischaracterizing your opinion?
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 03:42 PM
Jun 2019

You are willing to add more restrictions on a woman's right to choose abortion. True or false? I've got my shovel to help you with your hole.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
93. False. I am not willing to add "more" restrictions to the present ones..
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 04:28 PM
Jun 2019

I want to roll back all or almost all. If we are successful in that, I might be willing to consider restrictions that don't violate the letter or spirit of Roe v. Wade, on a case by case basis. There's a nuance there that you missed. You added the word "more" which I never said. I didn't use any synonyms for "more" either.

You also missed the nuance of "might consider" despite my emphasis on it, as in I am not actually considering any restrictions at this time, but if someone had a proposal I might talk to them about it. Rachel Held-Evans, I guessed, might(again, the word is "might." It means here that I don't know if she did or didn't) have had something I thought worth talking about, but she is dead and I can't find any further details.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
94. That's not at all what you said in post #41.
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 04:45 PM
Jun 2019

You said NOTHING about removing all "or almost all" current restrictions in #41.

You said NOTHING about that in #43.

You said NOTHING about that #64, #67, #69, etc., etc., etc.

It appears to me you've tried to create yourself an "out," but you changed your position by adding some new stipulation.

Nice hole you've got there.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
97. First, don't tell me what my intentions are. Second, if I make a mistake, I admit it.
Sat Jun 8, 2019, 09:07 AM
Jun 2019

I made a mistake. I see I didn't make myself clear as to what I thought she was trying to say vs. what I thought. I didn't realize that mistake started in post 41 so I didn't fix it.

I still want to know what she really meant. I still take a position not in sync with most progressives. You probably still won't agree with it. But I don't want to add more restrictions to the present ones. Thanks for letting me clarify that.

If you accept this admission of a mistake and you are curious about my position, we could keep talking, but we'd would have to start over.

If none of that matters to you, and you just to watch people dig holes, well then you missed your calling as a construction supervisor.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
98. I'm not curious about why you are willing to impose restrictions on a woman's right to choose.
Mon Jun 10, 2019, 08:33 AM
Jun 2019

You've already said enough.

Cartoonist

(7,316 posts)
5. That's all we need
Thu May 30, 2019, 02:00 PM
May 2019

You want a civil war? Just let the Democrats be overrun by the religious left. Then we'll see a sunni/shiite divide here in America.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
13. What exactly are you "letting" happen or not happen?
Thu May 30, 2019, 04:30 PM
May 2019

Religious groups are free to organize the way they want, collect funds, advocate for their beliefs and run candidates for political office. Don't vote for them if you don't like them, but are you really going to let a RWNJ win an election because the Democratic candidate mentions God too much?

Cartoonist

(7,316 posts)
15. A takeover
Thu May 30, 2019, 05:15 PM
May 2019

It won't happen overnight, hopefully never, but having the top officials and office holders of the Democratic Party inserting religion into the process is frightening.

Withholding funds from candidates who do not pass a religious litmus test would be one such calamity. I'm sure you could think of more reasons why not to let it happen.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
18. So you won't vote for anybody who says "God" too much?
Thu May 30, 2019, 06:01 PM
May 2019

Even if that means some RWNJ will defeat an otherwise perfectly good progressive Democrat? Yeah, that will show those horrible people we won't be pushed around by the religious left.

Cartoonist

(7,316 posts)
25. I might not
Fri May 31, 2019, 12:28 AM
May 2019

You need to be more specific with your hypotheticals. No, I will not vote for someone who puts God before country.

I live in CA. I don't see any candidates like that in my area. I am concerned about the rest of the country. I don't want to see the rise of religious influence anywhere, especially in politics.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
29. I don't know of any candidates on the left who "puts God before country."
Fri May 31, 2019, 09:10 AM
May 2019

This whole issue seems to have popped up because Buttigieg call Pence a hypocrite for being a bad Christian. Also he said his marriage brought him closer to God. So you wouldn't vote for him?

Cartoonist

(7,316 posts)
32. I might
Fri May 31, 2019, 09:34 AM
May 2019

But I wish he would shut up with the religious talk. If he wants to be a priest, fine. If he wants to be president, leave religion at home.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
35. All candidates make a bet. Buttigieg is betting more people will like his religious talk
Fri May 31, 2019, 09:50 AM
May 2019

than will be turned off by it. I am indifferent myself, but I like that he battles the religious right on their own turf. It takes guts and it gets attention.

Voltaire2

(13,009 posts)
9. How's about we mobilize the nones instead?
Thu May 30, 2019, 04:06 PM
May 2019

We are the single largest block in that graph, but our views on religion are at best an afterthought as candidates outdo each other trying to be all godded up.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
11. Good point, but who is this "we" you speak of?
Thu May 30, 2019, 04:25 PM
May 2019

You are a none, so organize the nones. I've always heard they have nothing in common to organize around, but what do I know?

Meanwhile, religious leftists will organize on their own. If nobody shows up, that's their problem.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
14. So nobody is showing up at the Religious Left Prayer Breakfast?
Thu May 30, 2019, 04:34 PM
May 2019

Ok then, carry on. The nones are winning.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
17. No, the nones are expected to shut up and let the "religious left" do what they want.
Thu May 30, 2019, 05:43 PM
May 2019

At least that's what it seems we are being told, despite being the largest group in the progressive coalition.

Religious privilege is ingrained in many.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
22. Oh that's cute.
Thu May 30, 2019, 06:11 PM
May 2019

I'll cut you some slack since your account says you've only been here a couple of years.

It has been a constant theme in this group over the years that the non-religious on the left need to silence their objections to religious dogma and motivations lest we "scare away" Christians who would otherwise vote for Democrats, if not for the words of anonymous atheists on a random Internet message board.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
23. Thanks for the slack, I do need it.
Thu May 30, 2019, 06:26 PM
May 2019

I understand there were a number of religious posters who got into into pitched battles with atheists. That all happened before I started posting here. I have no interest in reading old threads so I'll just take your word that they said that.

You don't need to silence yourself here. It doesn't matter what we say here. The Internet is a strange place where you can shout and scream about anything but nobody hears you because 1 billion other people are screaming about something else.

applegrove

(118,622 posts)
26. Religious right have a shitload of money. Nun's residence down the road from me, basically a mansion
Fri May 31, 2019, 12:40 AM
May 2019

was sold to evangelicals. Nobody else could afford such a mansion near downtown Ottawa. They have occassional events there. But are quiet 97% of the time. I think religious right is floating in money. Where religious left put their money towards poverty programs. Religious right towards spreading their message and getting more converts to voting republican I'm sure for some of them in an earnest attempt to stop abortions. But they don't seem to care that good birth control stops more abortions than anything else and republicans are against good birth control planning and funding.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
37. Or...
Fri May 31, 2019, 11:24 AM
May 2019

The religious right has more money because it has more people than can fit in its megachurches and the religious left can barely fill a Volkswagen minibus.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
44. From the article:
Fri May 31, 2019, 05:09 PM
May 2019

...And even though a substantial number of Democrats are religious, they have come to make up a smaller and smaller subset of the party. Over the past two decades, the share of people in the Democratic coalition who don’t identify with any religion doubled, from 14 percent in 1998 to 28 percent in 2018, according to the General Social Survey. The result is that today’s Democratic Party is increasingly secular, which complicates and limits traditional forms of faith outreach.


So if 28% do not identify with a particular religion, does that not leave 72% who do?

And if 72% of Democrats identify with a religion, the Party IS appealing to these religious voters.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
46. You grasp onto whatever straws you want, g.
Mon Jun 3, 2019, 08:44 AM
Jun 2019

I understand the long-term demographics are upsetting for you.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
49. Tell me, do you try to remind all minorities of their "place,"
Tue Jun 4, 2019, 08:35 AM
Jun 2019

or just non-believers?

Does it make you feel better?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
51. I understand your need to beleive in your narrative.
Tue Jun 4, 2019, 01:27 PM
Jun 2019

I do. But that does not make the narrative correct.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
52. So why do you only tell non-believers to mind their place?
Tue Jun 4, 2019, 01:41 PM
Jun 2019

Please explain.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't tell black Democrats to allow the party to cater to white Americans, right?

Or gay Democrats to allow the party to cater to straight Americans?

So why are you just peachy with stomping on a religious minority? Particularly one that's on a remarkable growth pattern?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
54. I didn't reframe a thing.
Tue Jun 4, 2019, 01:48 PM
Jun 2019

Your words are there for all to read.

Why don't you start acting in a way that would make Jesus proud, and welcome non-believers into the party?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
56. You're trying to gaslight again.
Tue Jun 4, 2019, 01:49 PM
Jun 2019

It won't work. It never has.

Are you showing everyone what a Christian looks like, guillaumeb?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
58. I am merely pointing out what you are saying.
Tue Jun 4, 2019, 02:01 PM
Jun 2019

You don't like that, and so you continue to attack and belittle me.

Apparently you DO think that's how Jesus wants you to act. I wonder how many people you're scaring out of the party with your behavior?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
60. No, you are attempting to control the limits of the narrative.
Tue Jun 4, 2019, 02:04 PM
Jun 2019

Thus the need to resort to straw man and other tactics. Including your responses here. Creating enemies and demonizing opponents rarely builds unity.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
61. Where's the straw man, g?
Tue Jun 4, 2019, 02:05 PM
Jun 2019

Explain exactly how I'm wrong.

Clarify whether you think non-believers in the Democratic coalition need to allow Christians to dominate the party. Explain how you think non-believers should be welcomed into the coalition.

You are accusing me of something. Prove the charge.

Bet you won't, though, because you're only about hatred and attacking.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
62. Even here, you must frame to attack.
Tue Jun 4, 2019, 02:10 PM
Jun 2019

You made an accusation. And you do it constantly.

And that is one reason that people comment on the toxicity of the supposed dialogue in this Group.

Have fun with your straw.

And no, I do not expect any proof of what you claimed that I said.

Response to trotsky (Reply #49)

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
50. Not even all that great of a straw to grasp
Tue Jun 4, 2019, 12:48 PM
Jun 2019

For those that still choose to identify with a particular religion, all the other demographics like church attendance and importance of faith are also trending down.

Lot's of people in Europe identify with a particular religion. Much fewer subscribe to the dogma and doctrine. Eventually the US will be the same. At some point religion will be limited to a small collection of zealots standing on the corner with a bullhorn.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
95. And chop that in about half, if you bother to read the next section about how important religion is
Fri Jun 7, 2019, 05:29 PM
Jun 2019

to those voters.

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