"Something" is the natural state of things

[edhopper]

Last edited Sun Aug 18, 2019, 11:47 AM - Edit history (1)

Why something instead of nothing? We don't know. But there is a presumption in that question that "nothing" is the natural state of things. But there is "something" and it is the stable order of the Universe. There are no eruptions of nothingness breaking into the something. There is no external "higher power" that is needed to keep the something in tact.

So maybe the question, which many deists use as an argument for the existence of a God, is not a question that needs to be answered.
Maybe the question should be, if the objective state of things is something, why conjecture that nothing is the default order?

[wasupaloopa]

1. Buddhists say that everything has a dependent cause.

The question is what was the first cause and how did it happen. From that all kinds of ideas arise.

[edhopper]

2. But was there?

We don't know.
Aristotle and Augustine also talked about the first cause. But two thoughts on that. That is a logical concept not based on scientific evidence. And then, of course, even with a first cause, there is no need to posit an intelligence behind it.

[wasupaloopa]

5. Agree

[WhiteTara]

3. The first link in the chain

is ignorance and desire

[wasupaloopa]

6. The cause of suffering

[WhiteTara]

4. No Mind No Buddha

No Buddha No Mind

[edhopper]

7. What does that even mean?

That seems to propose a mind/body separation for which there is no evidence.

Or is it saying, No Brain No Buddha? That there is nothing being the natural Universe and our understanding comes from ourselves?

[WhiteTara]

8. The brain is an organ

the mind is the stream of consciousness. As with all koans, it stretches the brain cells.

[Act_of_Reparation]

14. The mind is a function of the brain.

No brain, no mind.

[WhiteTara]

15. I think you have that backwards

Mind is essence and brain is function. Your brain did not manifest your body as it is part of the body.

[Act_of_Reparation]

16. No, I really don't.

The mind is a product of the electrochemical processes of the brain. Interrupt or otherwise alter those processes, and the mind follows suit.

Phineas Gage

[WhiteTara]

17. Okay. So you rose from no thing

and your brain made it all happen. Got it. Thanks for the info.

[Act_of_Reparation]

18. Me, you, and everything.

[WhiteTara]

19. Rose from no thing?

How is that possible?

[Act_of_Reparation]

20. Biochemistry and a healthy dose of selective pressure.

[WhiteTara]

21. That's not no thing

those are somethings.

[Act_of_Reparation]

23. "No thing" is not a term I used.

It is a term you used and are, for whatever reason, attributing to me. I don't know what it means or how it even relates to this discussion.

[WhiteTara]

25. nothing - no thing

I'm just asking how you can manifest your life and body from your brain which is simply an organ.
I have attributed nothing to you. I'm simply asking questions.

[qazplm135]

26. your brain, body, life and everything else

"manifested" from an egg from your mom fertilized from the sperm from your dad.
It grew in your mom's belly thanks to nutrients provided by her.

That then led to your brain and the rest of your organs and parts as that fertilized egg grew and followed the plan of the DNA inside of it.

Your brain then "manifested" your mind.
Because your brain was still massively underdeveloped, so was your mind...to start. So much so that from 0-1 or 2, dogs and cats are more sophisticated and intelligent and aware.

Then you grew, and your brain grew and thus your mind grew until roughly the early 20s when the brain, more or less, stops developing (of course there are some small changes for good and for ill that continue on over life but nothing approaching ordinarily what happens during this 20+ year development cycle).

It's why most of us more or less are who we are by our late 20s barring something significant.
It's why significant damage to the brain fundamentally changes our personality and sense of self.
It's why being born with just a brain stem leads to no cognition or sense of self.
"You" requires your brain. If you change your brain, you change "you." Look at what happens to lobotomized people.
If your brain doesn't work right, your mind doesn't work right. See e.g. chemical imbalances and mental illness or amygdala size and schizophrenia.

So, your mind needs your brain. Without a brain, you don't have a mind. A dysfunctional brain means a dysfunctional mind.

It's not rocket science (although I suppose it can involve brain surgery).

[Voltaire2]

27. why does "simply an organ" preclude consciousness?

You seem to assume that consciousness cannot be a physical process. Why?

[WhiteTara]

28. When you tell me

who is asking that question, I'll give an answer.

[Voltaire2]

31. Uh you?

“I'm just asking how you can manifest your life and body from your brain which is simply an organ. ”

[Act_of_Reparation]

32. I'm still not sure I understand what you're asking.

The brain doesn't "manifest" the body. The brain is a part of the body.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "life". Are you talking about that which separates organisms from inorganic matter, or the totality of my being?

[TreasonousBastard]

9. We really have no concept of "nothing". Try to imagine what lies beyond the end of the universe...

or what "infinity" really means. What would be here if the universe never happened?

W@hat would be here if nothing was here? A nothing more "nothingy" than just a vacuum, which would be something. "Nothing" means the non-existence of "something" to compare it to. So if we have the concept of "something", is that not the existence of something?

So, we have to dive deep into the concept of nothingness to even eliminate the concept of something. The human mind cannot do that.

So, "something" is the natural state of things in our universe. How did the somethings come about? We don't know and may never know. We also may never know about the possibility of "nothing".

Not all deists claim God created the universe; some simply consider it an unanswerable, and therefore irrelevant, mystery. And many consider God to be just one step above us, with possibly many steps and gods above them. God is there as the ultimate appeals court and management of just our sector. Of course, we humans have a problem deciding which god is the real one, or how it speaks to us.

Personally, I am fascinated by solipsism. The thought that all of this is merely my mind creating everything from the lilies of the field to mass murder is strangely comforting while it is terrifying. Perhaps it's not just my mind, but a few minds working together to create conflict.

I have to go now.

[edhopper]

10. good points

I have changed my OP from the universal "deists" to the qualified "many deists".

[CrispyQ]

11. We do have a concept of nothing.

Nothing is what we were before birth & are going to be after death.

Issac Asimov wrote a story titled "The Last Question," which was basically, can entropy be reversed? It's been decades since I read it, but I remember the ending. It was kind of a cheat, but unexpected. Carl Sagan's book, "Contact" had a gods-as-just-a-more-advanced-species-than-we-are aspect to it. The book was so good & the movie was sooooooo bad! The end of the book was—perfect.

[TreasonousBastard]

12. Interesting concept of nothing, but it's very specific and ignores the somethings...

surrounding it.

If nothing is interrupted by something, is it still nothing?

I met Asimov many years ago, and he did have a penchant for asking unanswerable questions. He also had a way of making you think he thought he had the answer hidden away. He was a regular fixture at the Mensa annual gatherings he could get to. He would not fly, and if he couldn't take a train he wouldn't go.

Contact, btw was originally written as a movie, and when the project died he came out with the book that revived the movie project.

The best science fiction gives possible answers to things science fails at. Asimov was a master at that, and Sagan, being a scientist himself, builds a beautiful bridge.

[mia]

13. Everything is all that is.

Nothing is not.

[Duppers]

22. My hubs says you're exactly RIGHT.

Thanks for your brilliant post; Mr. Duppers, PhD physics, also says thanks.

[edhopper]

24. High praise

I would much rather hear what a physicist has to say about something/nothing than a theologian.

[delisen]

29. Limitations of human visual system led

to the belief that a state on nothingness or emptiness exists.

It is another example of belief preceding scientific knowledge.

Similar to notions of "race" based upon phenotypes preceding scientific knowledge.

[edhopper]

30. I BELIEVE in nothing.

I believe in NOTHING.