Religion
Related: About this forumCatholic Priest rapes another child. When are people going to stop supporting this church?
It was close to midnight Sunday when Woodburn resident James Curths saw the 12-year-old boy running down the street toward him. Curths said the child, panting and out of breath, begged for help, telling him a man was chasing him.
Moments later, a man rounded the corner wearing only underwear. He stood a short distance away, trying to wave the boy over as Curths and his sister-in-law prepared to drive the boy to relatives.
"He was staring at us," said Heather Rodriguez, 28, Curths' sister-in-law, who was also outside. "Then he stood there with his hands on his hips like, 'You're really not going to give him to me?'"
Rodriguez and Curths, 35, told the man they were calling the police. Only then, they said, did the man jog away.
The man who chased after the boy that night, Woodburn police say, was the Rev. Angel Armando Perez, the parish priest at St. Luke Catholic Church in Woodburn. Early Monday, the boy gave police a detailed account of the alleged sex abuse he said occurred at Perez's home, leading to Perez's arrest later Monday.
(more at link)
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/08/police_woodburn_priest_chased.html
Just what is it about this church that makes it's leaders such pedophiles? How much more abuse do kids have to take in these institutions before people stop giving their time, money, and support to these same institutions that hide and protect (this guy isn't going to hide, because he got caught by civilians) pedophile priests and espouse institutional misogyny?
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)celibacy is a stupid church rule
GreenPartyVoter
(72,377 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)All I said was when you try to suppress a very natural urge shit happens
When you suppress something anything can happen. They have just taken this urge and corrupted it
mysuzuki2
(3,521 posts)I'm not trying to give you a hard time or start a war but can you cite any facts or studies which support your assertion?
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)It's the suggestion that celibacy leads to pedophilia that needs backed up here.
I think it's more reasonable to assume that these guys were pedophiles to begin with and surrounding themselves with young boys was either too big of a temptation for someone with their mental sickness (or a more sinister motivation could be that they purposefully did this to gain access to young boys on a regular basis). Anyway, pedophilia seems to be either something inborn or biological or the result of psychological damage early in life, so it's doubtful that the vow of celibacy has anything to do with whether or not a pedophile is going to rape a child.
Not a scientific paper, but a nice brief summary of the sickness:
http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Pedophilia.html#b
GreenPartyVoter
(72,377 posts)celibate people commit acts of pedophilia.
Is it possible that a man who never had the desire to be sexually involved with a child entered the church, took the vow of celibacy, and then developed a desire to hurt children? Maybe. But I maintain that it doesn't make sense that this represents the majority of pedophiles in the church. We know from studying pedophiles, and from interviews with them, that they seek out places where they can become involved with children. These are places where they can gain status as a trusted person whom adults would leave their child in their care. That indicates that they were already drawn to children before they took the vow. (In fact, there are many cases where husbands have a sex life with their wives but still go on to hurt their children or friends of their kids. )
Editing because I forgot to qualify the "mostly opinion." I have been through a layperson's Safe Church training which teaches people where pedophiles look for kids, how they get close to them and groom them, what behaviors are red flags and so forth. It included a video featuring two men discussing how they managed to get kids, and several survivors sharing their own stories. A heartbreaking and anger-inducing seminar, to be sure. :cry
Warpy
(111,174 posts)love to hide behind the cross.
Other churches have also produced scum like this among their clergy. The difference is that they didn't have the Vatican to cover it up, bribe people to stay quiet, and move the perps around.
GreenPartyVoter
(72,377 posts)pnwmom
(108,959 posts)within a group they hope will contain their baser tendencies.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)to get access to children, free healthcare, free housing and free lawyers when they eventually need them.
The dioceses in Portland spent $70 million dollars raping children and they plan to continue. Disgusting and there is no excuse for it.
digonswine
(1,485 posts)some young men recognize that they have sexual feelings toward children and feel a great amount of guilt. This guilt impels them to seek a future where sexuality and sex is suppressed-a form of avoidance. When they get done with studies and have to go about the duties of a priest, they start to live a life. This urge-suppressed in the past, presents itself again. Now they are in a position of power and come in contact with many kids-who they are sexually attracted to-through no fault of their own(the feelings-NOT the actions). They, then, act on these urges, becoming the monsters we abhor.
Just an idea.
MichiganVote
(21,086 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)perhaps you should think before you attack
MichiganVote
(21,086 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)GreenPartyVoter
(72,377 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)where they have been hiding and protecting child rapers for DECADES, if not centuries, it certainly has made it an institution that is very attractive to that type.
What I don't get is how followers of this church's teachings have not risen up in protest over this issue. Add in the institutionalized misogyny, and one would think you have a recipe for revolution and change. But no, they just keep coming back every Sunday, filling the coffers, pretending everything is just fine...
GreenPartyVoter
(72,377 posts)restrictions on who can participate and which have some sort of safety training in place seem to be less likely to be infiltrated. (Although even that can be circumvented.)
Rob H.
(5,349 posts)that in schools, youth organizations and sports clubs, when a person sexually abuses children and is identified, he generally gets arrested and sent to jail. Priests (and to be fair, there have been child sex abuse scandals involving Baptist ministers, as well) get moved to another parish, the incident(s) is kept secret, and he's able to abuse again.
Edited for clarity.
GreenPartyVoter
(72,377 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Notice how he evades making any comment on the topic at hand, which is yet ANOTHER child-raping priest.
rug
(82,333 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)That's always wise when one confronts a fresh load of bullshit.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Because the only bullshit here is found within posts with your name attached to them.
rug
(82,333 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)I just read your latest opus.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Leontius
(2,270 posts)Of course he has the chance here to say no he does not say, or believe, that you defend child abuse. If he in fact does not believe that you do defend child abuse he should clearly state it. If he can't find the words maybe this will help, " No rug I do not believe that you defend child abuse."
rug
(82,333 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)And around the circle we go.
rug
(82,333 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)eqfan592
(5,963 posts)rug is a vocal defender of the "institution" in this case.
Leontius
(2,270 posts)"rug I don't think you defend child abuse." If he can't say that then it would seem that he does believe that rug defends child abuse and not just the RCC. Very easy to make it plain what he thinks why is he afraid to do so.
eqfan592
(5,963 posts)As for the rest, I can see the fun to be had in getting rugs goat a little bit as well, tho I'm sure rug doesn't see it that way, and had an entirely different motive in leaping to the conclusion he did.
Like I said, the insinuation was obvious to me, given rugs history. To try and say otherwise is, at best, a real stretch.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)towards hiding child abusers and making sure they were not prosecuted for their crimes. Making the claim that this problem is not unique to the Catholic Church really does nothing to address the Church itself or the original question.
rug
(82,333 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)seem
/sēm/
Verb
Give the impression or sensation of being something or having a particular quality: "Dawn seemed annoyed".
Used to make a statement or description of one's thoughts, feelings, or actions less assertive or forceful.
Synonyms
appear - look - sound
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Not sure if English is rug's primary language (there are plenty of international members here), but I thought I was fairly clear. If Rug had been more forceful and articulate in his/her opinion I probably would not have used the word "seem". :-P
rug
(82,333 posts)People who insinuate are deliberately unclear.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)It takes very little to comprehend your statement.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Weak and ambiguous is about all you will get.
rug
(82,333 posts)in·sin·u·ate/inˈsinyooˌāt/
Verb:
1.Suggest or hint (something negative) in an indirect and unpleasant way.
2.Maneuver oneself into (a position of favor or office) by subtle manipulation: "she insinuated herself into management".
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)But the way you responding, you are defending the idea of supporting an organization that has actively covered up child abuse by its employees at very high levels. I'm not the one being cryptic here.
rug
(82,333 posts)Are you saying no one should belong to the Catholic Church?
If you have something else in mind, let's hear it.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)I don't think I was being very cryptic of that opinion at all, lol. And I think the pedophilia issue is one good reason to leave. In fact, that's what I thought the OP was basically asking too, whether there is any good reason to support the church in light of the pedophilia scandals. And I don't know about the OP, but I'm perfectly fine with any other religious organization being added to the Catholic Church if you are aware for similar large scale pedophilia problems. The Catholic Church is the only other one I can think of though at the moment.
rug
(82,333 posts)That's a bigoted statement. Note, I didn't use the word seem.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)How is it bigoted to say that one should not support an organization that hides and enables pedophiles?
rug
(82,333 posts)It's also a stupid thing to say.
Why, did you alert or are you just obsessing about DU3?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)You both appear to not fully understand the meaning of that word. Unless youre one and the same. You're not are you? No need to be cryptic, just a yes or no will do.
rug
(82,333 posts)BIGOT
: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
Equating all members of the Catholic Church with complicity in pedophilia is . . . what?
Come on, it's your favorite topic. Surely you can defend your own opinions and prejudices.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)No need to be cryptic, a yes or no will do.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)That's his game, it's a laugh riot.
rug
(82,333 posts)rexcat
(3,622 posts)within the hierarchy of the church. She found it impossible to support an organization that allowed the rape of children.
It appears some people can over look the rape of children and continue to support the catholic church. I say good for them!
rexcat
(3,622 posts)I can say my father-in-law. He knew of a priest who was assigned to their parish but the word had gotten to them from the previous parish were this pervert had been assigned. No one in the parish did anything about this person other than keep the boys away from him. Crimes had been committed by this priest and no one was willing to do anything about it. I am also sure there are many catholics today who would and have look the other way.
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)Catholicism is the largest single denomination of Christians, so they will produce a larger number (but not proportion) of pedophiles.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)That's your excuse?
Pedophiles are indeed found elsewhere - one might say, sadly, everywhere.
What is NOT found everywhere is the institutionalized protection, support, and system of providing offenders with access to fresh victims.
The lone recent secular example - Penn State - demonstrates perfectly how there are consequences for institutions other than your church.
rug
(82,333 posts)It's unsurprisingly dishonest.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)And your lack of response to the issue is what's unsurprising.
You may resume your attacks on me now. Jesus will be proud of you.
Oh, and I just edited to remove the quotes so you have nothing to whine about. Will you address the content of the post now, or just hurl another insult?
mr blur
(7,753 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)"everyone's doing it, so it's Ok" defense. Try using that argument with your local bishop when you try to convince him that it's OK to use artificial birth control.
rug
(82,333 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Then we can shut down the next one, and then the next one. Or should we wait until all are identified and then start shutting them down??
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)we can go after Syracuse and all the other universities.
lsewpershad
(2,620 posts)Maybe that's why they became priests of the C church. Mr pope or is it"poop" where are you??????
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)They pay no taxes and the politicians fear the believers and the masses the church leaders hold in the palm of their hands.
The fear of death and hell is a powerful weapon and the controlling entities use it well.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)"Perez was arraigned in Marion County Circuit Court on Tuesday, appearing via video from Marion County Jail, wearing a black V-neck top with his hands secured in front of his waist. He faced allegations of first-degree sexual abuse, abuse of a child in the display of sexually explicit conduct, furnishing alcohol to a minor and driving under the influence of intoxicants. "
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)mysuzuki2
(3,521 posts)I have no way of knowing if Catholic priests are more or less likely to be pedophiles than the clergy of other religious groups or members of other organizations. However, there is one qualitative difference. Most other religious and other organizations lack both the size and power to engage in decades long coverups of pedophilia. And this fact, I think, is what outrages people the most. We all know people will sometimes do bad things. But the Catholic church has been until recent years been quite successful in covering it up and allowing pedophiles to get away with it. In so doing they have all but institutionalized child abuse. I for one have absolutely no sympathy for them. They've made their own bed.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)But you'll notice in this very thread, the apologists for the RCC will only focus on the (correct) statement that pedophiles are found everywhere that provides access to children. Note that when your fact is pointed out (institutional coverup), the topic changes or insults are hurled ("anti-Catholic bigotry" is a common one).
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)Do like the kooks do in front of abortion clinics. Make those that support the church feel intimidated, and scared to go. It needs to start somewhere. I was raised catholic, I heard the hate against gay people spewed from the alter. And our church had it's own monster who was later transferred to another church so he can continue to molest children. He was a young priest named Father Michael Wimpy. Wimpy like Popeye's friend, but in reality, wimpy as the need to abuse children. He was all the kids favorite too.
GodlessBiker
(6,314 posts)and another set of rules for the unwashed masses, or at least that is what the three ex-priests I know have told me, which is a small sample, I know, but it is significant that they all told me this independently.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 21, 2012, 12:43 PM - Edit history (1)
when they sit at their computer all day trying to make it seem like the protection and enabling of child rape really isn't all that bad, and shouldn't be criticized at all? And about certain others here who think that attitude is so wonderfully worthy of respect that they never, EVER say a word about it or confront that kind of despicable thinking in ANY way?
_Liann_
(377 posts)Catholic Priest OR Bishop child-abuse OR sexual-abuse
Each time I search, I map the results. A picture of the "organized crime" child rapist syndicate emerges: the getaway drivers and excusers and accomplices and coverups for Catholic Priest OR Bishop Child Abuse OR Sexual Abuse. http://g.co/maps/jq7cq = GOOGLE MAP LINK ~~ http://bishop-child-abuse.blogspot.com
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GOP WAR ON WOMEN ~~Location of stories and news events documenting Republican disrespect, conquest, and subjugation of women by "sacred penis-sperm" holy self-lovers.
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Republican Religious War on Abortion
Those crazy Republican lunatics have declared war on separation of Church and State, especially the Constitutional Right of Women to sovereign control of their own bodies and decide for themselves when they will be breeders. The GOP-JIHADISTS want women slaves to breed cannon fodder for their eternal warfare theology. This blog records their acts and maps their locations: http://gop-war-on-women.blogspot.com/ ~~ GOOGLE MAP LINK: http://g.co/maps/zqn5a
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)If you google "teacher" and "child abuse" you get more than 9 million hits.
If you google "Catholic priest" and "child abuse" you get more than 3 hundred thousand hits.
So?
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)every time it happens. Never get a fucking answer.
It's like they close their eyes, plug their ears and go lalalalalalalalalalalalala.
Shadowflash
(1,536 posts)And many enthusiastic people have supported them through it all.
Why would they stop supporting them for doing it now?
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)like Penn State and Syracuse?
Pedophilia is everywhere there are children and adults.
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)they start covering it up and moving pedophiles around to new schools without telling anyone about what happened and threatening others to keep it quiet or they'll be fired.
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)Penn State knew that Sandusky was an abuser and so they gave him a nice pension plan and allowed him continued access to kids by not reporting him to the police, even though they knew he was still involved with kids at The Second Mile. It was several years after his forced retirement that they finally banned him from the campus, after he was witnessed raping a child. But they still didn't report him to the police.
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)everyone involved should be thrown in the slammer.
Justice will have prevailed, if it comes out that it has been going on for a long time, with multiple coaches, teachers and other schools involved in the ring and coverup, then yes, they should be shut down and anyone still supporting them should be called out on it.
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)wealthy Penn state boosters.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/13/jerry-sandusky-booster-sex-abuse-private-plane_n_1772564.html
A witness interviewed by federal authorities claims convicted child molester Jerry Sandusky and a Penn State booster sexually assaulted boys on a private plane, according to an exclusive RadarOnline report.
U.S. Postal Inspectors interviewed the witness after opening a new investigation into whether Sandusky shared child pornography.
The witness, who "has a strong tie to the booster he is accusing," claims that Sandusky and the fundraiser abused two boys on a private plane in Pennsylvania, the site reported. RadarOnline's unidentified source doesn't know whether the two boys are among Sandusky's previously identified victims.
even though the numbers aren't as high snd the cover-up very small in comparison, there seems to have been some shit going on there, and in that case I could honestly say it wasn't just one bad apple and would I not support that school or any similar ones. I'm not very knowledgable on the penn state fiasco, thanks for the info..
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)The Administration could, if it want to do so, conduct an investigation to determine whether it should continue to have a tax exempt status.
Do we fail to conduct any RICO investigation? Again, that's a political choice, not ours.