Now I lay me down to sleep...

[MineralMan]

When I was a wee laddie, just learning to read, one of the first things I read was a bit of cross-stitched needlework by my grandmother, who hung two framed poems on the wall by my bed. The poems read:

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord my soul to keep,
If I shall die before I wake,
I pray the Lord my soul to take. Amen.

Now I wake and see the light:
'Tis God who kept me through the night.
To Him I lift my voice, and pray
That He would keep me through the day.
If I shouId die before 'tis done,
O God, accept me through thy Son. Amen

When I first read these poems, at about age 5, they frightened me. The focus they had on dying was very troublesome to my young mind. Was that something that might happen to me? Might I die in the middle of the night or during the day? Was death that imminent and common? These thoughts troubled me for a couple of years. I eventually grew to simply ignore those two bits of doggerel beside my bed as nonsense. I wasn't seeing my friend dropping dead overnight, nor did they suddenly fall dead during the day, either.

Much later, as an adult, I pointed those needlework exercises out to my mother, who had hung them there at the behest of her own mother. I told her that they had caused me some serious anxiety when I was just a small child, and wondered why they were there as an ever-present reminder in my bedroom. My mother, who is an atheist, too, said that she never really thought about it. She had just hung them because they were a gift from her mother when I was an infant.

Today, they hang in the guest bedroom at my parents' house. When I visit, they're still there. I still think about them when I visit. I'm still puzzled why my grandmother thought they were appropriate for a child's room. I don't find them appropriate, frankly. As an atheist, I simply ignore their frightening reminder of the fragility of life and their insistence that it is some deity that allows a child to live or die, as it sees fit.

My grandmother is long dead, and I never asked her what could possibly have made her think those prayers were appropriate for a child. I wonder what her answer would have been, or if she simply did the cross-stitching without really thinking about the effects those words might have on a small child, just learning to read. I'll never know the answer.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. I remember that one, too.

And for awhile it made me afraid to go to sleep because I might not wake up. It's a creepy prayer that scares little kids.

[MineralMan]

2. It is creepy, isn't it?

How odd that people would think to hang such a thing in a child's bedroom. Fear is a lousy reason to believe in a religion, it seems to me, but those prayers are pure fear-mongering.

[northoftheborder]

3. I said that prayer as a child for years, and never had any depressing worries about not waking up.

[monmouth3]

68. "There are four angels on my bed, there are four angels on my spread, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John,

May God bless the bed I lie on."...

[cbayer]

4. I never found it disturbing in the least, quite the contrary.

I recall it as comforting and I think it also afforded the opportunity to talk about death.

Sorry you had such a negative experience.

[MineralMan]

5. OK. That was your experience.

Mine was different. Perhaps I had a more active imagination.

[cbayer]

7. That was my point - we had different experiences.

We also probably had different environments, and that could explain it as well.

As for imagination, I doubt that had much to do with it.

[MineralMan]

14. Well, clearly there is something different in our

reception of that as a child. What that is, I wouldn't want to guess, actually, although it's an intriguing difference.

My maternal grandmother was an old-timey Baptist, of the Texas variety. Reading through her old shape-note hymnal is interesting. A lot of the hymns are dark, minor-key things that dwell on similar aspects of Christianity. I have that hymnal in my collection now, and actually learned the whole shape-note concept of reading music in my early teens. It was interesting, and actually served to help me when transposing music was needed.

She was also a very dour individual in general, with a decidedly pessimistic outlook on life. I was one of the only grandchildren who could tolerate being around her for more than a few minutes as a child, and only because she told interesting stories about her own childhood in the late 19th century and early 20th century. She had information, so I could draw out those stories and learn from them.

[cbayer]

17. She sounds like what I recall of my great-grandmother.

FWIW, the really cheerful songs take place on Easter Day, as I recall.

[Voice for Peace]

62. my maternal grandmother and mother both were full of woe.

Some say the attitudes & experiences of the maternal
grandmother are passed to the grandchild directly.
The egg of the grandchild is formed within her
grandmotherly womb, when she is pregnant with a
daughter.

My mother lived dreamed and breathed thoughts
of death. She expected to die before she was 30.
I was born when she was 29 but apparently I tried
to abort myself early on; immersed in a womb
of death, what was the point of being born?
Everything died, dies, and is always dying.

When I was a child, my mother took me to visit
graveyards. I recall this as being a frequent outing,
but maybe it happened only once. I remember her
pointing out the graves of little children.. oh look,
she would say, she was only five years old...

Meanwhile I was already six, and living on borrowed
time. I said that same prayer every night.
I fully expected to die before I waked. Every day
was .. huh.. now what? Planning for tomorrow was
never a sensible option.

[GeorgeGist]

32. I think imagination is essential to a healthy childhood.

[cbayer]

38. I certainly agree with that. I'm just not sure that the level of imagination that a child

has would significantly influence their reaction to this particular poem.

[Kalidurga]

6. Funny it's supposed to be comforting...

they are trying to tell the child hey even if you do die, well you might go to heaven. It's still stupid and it's still not appropriate, but I think they meant well. At least I hope they meant well because if they didn't then they are sadistic.

I never taught my children any prayers. And I don't even know if they are familiar with the first verse. I myself have never heard the second verse. I have to admit when my first two children were young I despaired over not being able to find a church. Every church I visited was a fundy church and back then I didn't have a name for what those churches were. I just didn't like them and only went a handful of times before giving up on their message. So, it went on and my children rarely attended church and now I am very glad I never found one to take them to regularly.

Fast forward 20 years and I am agnostic/atheist something something, I don't know don't care what label people use for my lack of belief in the Xian god. He is one of the worst fictional characters ever written.

[MineralMan]

8. Yes, and apparently that was true for some people.

I find that interesting, too. Perhaps there is a different take on it for those who continue to have religious beliefs and those who have none as adults. Perhaps the ability to be comforted by a poem that focuses on death is a requirement for continuing to have religious beliefs. I'll have to think about that one a bit. Such a thing had never occurred to me.

The "Now I lay me" test. Fascinating.

[Kalidurga]

11. I think you are onto something.

Because all religion is, is to get people to not be afraid of death or to find comfort in the face of death.

[cbayer]

15. Horse patooties.

It is so much more complex than that.

[MineralMan]

20. You are again speaking beyond your competence, I think.

It is an interesting question, for which there is no clear answer. I do not know the answer, either, but I'll be thinking about it. You have only one set of experiences on which to base your opinion, just as do the rest of us. That's not enough to base a solid opinion of this upon.

[cbayer]

21. Yes, my competence is very, very low.

Well, at least when compared to yours.

[cbayer]

12. Nah, it just has to do with how it is presented and explained to you as a child.

There is no more deeper significance than that, imo.

And if you are using my response as a data point, you have once again made incorrect assumptions.

Perhaps your fear/anxiety was in having a non-believing mother who put an overtly religious poem by your bed. That might have been very confusing.

[MineralMan]

16. You know, I don't think you are competent to tell me why I reacted in the way I did.

You may be able to talk about your own reactions, but have no basis on which to discuss mine. Perhaps you should leave off trying that.

[cbayer]

19. *kiss*

[MineralMan]

22. I have no wish to kiss you. Please don't be so familiar.

I did not post what I posted to get into an argument with you. I posted it because it interests me, and because I noticed those framed needleworks again when I visited my parents at Christmas. They're both 88 years old now. We have interesting conversations.

You are in no position to understand my own reactions as a child to that poem. You can only discuss your own.

[cbayer]

28. Okey, dokey. I will leave the speculating on why others reacted they way they did

to you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=64258

:takesbackkiss:

[DreamGypsy]

9. How about ...

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I hope my slumber will be deep,
So I awaken ready for a new day,
In the wondrous world where I may play.

[MineralMan]

10. Now, that's not frightening.

Much nicer.

[cbayer]

13. Found this one as well, lol

Now I lay me down to sleep.
Or toss and turn while counting sheep.
If I die before I wake
The funeral should have milkshakes.

[rug]

18. The earliest version of that was wriiten three hundred years ago.

Child mortality was not hypothetical then.

[MineralMan]

23. Yes, I'm aware of that. I use Wikipedia, too.

And you are correct that mortality of children has improved a great deal in this country and in other developed countries. That's really not pertinent, though, in a discussion of the impact of death-oriented religious poetry on young children, I think.

[rug]

24. It's a strange mindset that calls it "death-oriented religious poetry".

It's an old traditional poem passed down over generations.

Use your wiki to expostulate Ring Around the Rosie. It's a disease-oriented nursery rhyme.

[MineralMan]

25. I'm familiar with Ring Around the Rosie, as well.

But I appreciate your condescending attitude in attempting to teach me things. It's very helpful, I'm sure.

[rug]

26. A votre service.

[muriel_volestrangler]

69. Wiki says: "Urban legend says the song originally described the plague, but folklorists reject this"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_a_Ring_o%27_Roses

and I certainly wasn't taught it as "this is about dying from the plague, kiddies"; I heard the urban legend a few years later.

Yes, "death-oriented religious poetry" is a good description of the OP rhyme. Well, "verse" rather than "poetry", perhaps.

[rug]

71. Snopes agrees with wiki.

http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.asp

Still, calling it "death-oriented religious poetry" is like calling Jack and Jill a death-oriented nursery rhyme.

[muriel_volestrangler]

72. No; the entire point of the rhyme is (a) you might die at any moment

(b) it's up to God, and it's a good thing to ask him to keep you alive - or to be kind and take you into heaven, if he decides not to (at least it doesn't specify hell as the alternative to heaven). It's only about death and religion.

And no-one dies in "Jack and Jill". It's an injury fixed with vinegar and brown paper.

[rug]

74. That's utter rubbish.

Although (a) is correct, (b) is the fruit solely of your adult, jaundiced view of what you think religion is. It doesn't match the words of the rhyme in the least.

And in the original version, Jack broke his crown and was dead. Subsequent stanzas were added to mitigate this grim rhyme.

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. OK, we'll remove the bits about God keeping them alive or taking them to heaven

Now I lay me down to sleep,

If I shall die before I wake,

Amen.

Now I wake and see the light:
through the night.

through the day.
If I should die before 'tis done,

Amen.

Dunno, doesn't seem very catchy, to me.

What was your original version, that said Jack was dead? Maybe you had a death-obsessed teacher that altered it.

[rug]

77. That is from your wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_and_Jill_(nursery_rhyme)

[muriel_volestrangler]

79. What - one local interpretation?

"There is also a local belief that the rhyme records events in the village of Kilmersdon in Somerset in 1697. When a local spinster became pregnant, the putative father is said to have died from a rock fall and the woman died in childbirth soon after." No, no-one has ever tried to tell me that one before. Are you from Kilmersdon, then?

Why not "It has also been suggested that the rhyme records the attempt by King Charles I to reform the taxes on liquid measure"?

[rug]

80. The original doesn't state where the hill was.

He did, nevertheless, break his crown.

Maybe Kilmersdon is urban legend.

[muriel_volestrangler]

82. So, nothing about 'death' in the version you learnt, either

Your own urban legend that it was originally about Jack dying has lasted less than an hour before being debunked.

[rug]

84. I daresay breaking one's crown results in death.

OTOH, maybe Humpty Dumpty still lives.

[Bluenorthwest]

27. Nor is it today....

nt

[rug]

29. Absolutely correct.

[cbayer]

30. I think it has performed a sometimes valuable function in allowing

children to talk about death. Even in places with low rates of infant mortality, children are confronted with death. For those in families with religious beliefs, this would open the window.

[rug]

31. I agree. It's naive to think children are unaware of death.

[MineralMan]

35. So, it's OK to tell them it's God's will whether they live or die

on a daily basis? I'm afraid I can't see that. I was aware of death at age 5. My goldfish died, and my guinea pig, too. We buried them in the back yard and had a talk about death and dying. Nothing was said about any deities, though, since my parents weren't believers. We discussed it as part of a natural cycle, and that wasn't scary. The poem, on the other hand, was scary, since it seemed to say that some unseen entity was deciding on a daily basis whether I lived or died.

It didn't take long before the nonsense that represented faded away. The poems stayed on the wall, but only as curiosities from my grandmother.

Of one thing I'm sure: No such thing would ever grace the walls of any childhood bedroom I had anything to do with. It's inappropriate.

[rug]

46. The religious part of the poem is about love and mercy, not death by whim.

So, what would you put on a child's wall?

[muriel_volestrangler]

70. 'Mercy'? You want the child to think God is being extra kind by keeping them alive?

This gets worse. What else would you like on the wall for them to learn to read with - "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"?

[rug]

73. Don't put your twisted interpretation under my name.

As I said, the religious portion concerns a loving God , not an arbitrary, whimsical one.

Do you prefer,

Now I put myself to bed
Before we know it, we're all dead

You can then have an enlightening discusiion about existentialism with your toddler.

[muriel_volestrangler]

76. You're the one who brought up God's "mercy" for a rhyme about God keeping you alive

Own what you said.

[rug]

78. It's not about Godd keeping anyone alive - or killing anyone.

It's about going to Heaven if you die during the night.

Such a horrid message for a child.

[muriel_volestrangler]

81. Here are the bits about keeping the child alive:

"I pray the Lord my soul to keep" (as opposed to the alternative specified in the next line, which is dying, with the option of God taking the soul (to heaven))

"'Tis God who kept me through the night."
To Him I lift my voice, and pray
That He would keep me through the day." (followed, again, by the alternative of dying)

[rug]

83. Lol, really, are you now trying to use nursery rhymes to support your ant-theism?

Have you considered that placing one's soul in the care of God is an act of trust, not something to be toyed with by a supernatural psychopath?

[muriel_volestrangler]

86. If you could trust him, there'd be no need to pray to stay alive every day and night

There's no need for children to fear the supernatural:

[rug]

87. Do you really think this verse is a plea to stay alive?

And I think those who experienced fear were experiencing fear of death, which is the natural order of things.

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. Yes, it self-evidently is

Death can be the 'natural order of things', at times, but you don't expect it every night, and every day. By saying that God keeps you alive every night, and you should therefore pray to him to keep you alive in the next day too, it's saying your life depends, hour by hour, on God deciding to keep you alive.

[rug]

89. Hardly,. You know, this nursery rhyme seems to have a tighter grip on reality,

Anybody can die at any time.

[muriel_volestrangler]

90. And the rhyme explicitly says it's only God that stops death, every night (nt)

[rug]

91. Well, then, it must truly be an evil entity.

[murray hill farm]

85. My Catholic childhood prayer was...

Angel of God, my guardian dear
for whom His love commits me here.
Ever this night be at my side
to light and guard, to rule and guide.

[GeorgeGist]

33. Perfect opportunity ...

to fill their heads with nonsense. Most five year holds are completely trusting of their elders.

[cbayer]

36. Perhaps, but that trust can be challenged by things like an unexpected

death or loss of someone very important.

Even if a child eventually rejects the notion of god or life after death, the concept could be comforting for a child and not necessarily harmful at all.

[MineralMan]

41. Whatever do the children of non-believers do?

They're not told that mythology, and they seem to survive just fine when such things happen. I can't see how fables work better than facts when explaining death issues to children.

[cbayer]

45. Of course they survive just fine. Their parents offer an alternative explanation,

and there is nothing wrong with that at all.

Fables often work better than facts when explaining things to young children. It would be an unusual parent who would tell their curious 3 year old about the mechanics of sexual intercourse.

And then there are those who don't see god or life after death as fables at all. They tell it as a truth they believe in and have faith in. There is nothing wrong with that either, imo.

BTW, how does a child raised by an atheist mother spend his childhood and early teen years as a solid believer in the Christian *mythology*. Did that come independently?

[MineralMan]

48. That's why my parents got me a pair of guinea pigs

when I was three or four. "What are they doing, mommy?" led to first lessons in reproduction. It worked a treat. Then, when they died, they were exemplars for explanation of life and death.

My mother's father died when I was six, and I was at his funeral. I understood that people died. I didn't really understand the stuff that was said at the funeral, though, until I was older. But I knew that animals and people did die.

[cbayer]

53. That's great. Different parents do different things to teach their children, and,

unless it harms the child, I would tend to defer to them in these matters.

But all parents transmit myths to their child in one form or another.

[MineralMan]

56. Not all parents transmit myths.

My parents were very careful to explain fairy tales and even the Santa Claus myth to us for what it all was, as soon as we were able to understand. They'd explain that they were stories designed to teach things. We were the kids who blew Santa's cover to our kindergarten friends.

[cbayer]

57. As soon as you were able to understand being the key.

Sad to be the one who takes santa away from innocent children I would think.

[MineralMan]

59. Children seem to survive the death of their toddler myths, I think.

I doubt that my revelation that Santa wasn't real did any harm to my peers.

[cbayer]

61. Still sad to be the bearer of bad news, imo.

And I bet there were one or two parents that might have been annoyed, as they had not deemed their child ready.

But be that as it may, all parents tell their children stories, and those stories are often told as truths, whether they are or not.

Overall, no harm done, imo.

[MineralMan]

54. My parents took an interesting position on religious education.

They decided that they would not impose their own non-belief on their children. Instead, they sent us off to Sunday School at the local Presbyterian church, where we heard the stories and formed our own opinions. When we were adults, and capable of thinking for ourselves, we formed adult opinions. I became an atheist. My younger brother and sister remain nominal Christians, but it's not something that's really a regular part of their lives.

Our parents stayed out of it, and let us find whatever we found. If asked, they'd tell us that they didn't really believe any religious stories, but didn't press the point. We found our own beliefs or lack of beliefs on our own.

Discussing it with them now, I understand that they reasoned that Christianity was the dominant religion of the society, so they thought exposure to it would be of benefit to us. And so it was. Having a thorough grounding in Christian beliefs let me understand why I did not believe them as an adult. It became a conscious decision on my part, based on my own explorations.

Very clever, my parents.

[cbayer]

55. And many atheists would find the road your parents chose anathema.

But it sounds ok to me.

Again, I defer to parents on this. As long as the child is not harmed, then I think exposure to all kinds of belief and non-belief system is ok or no exposure at all.

[MineralMan]

58. It worked out just fine, all around.

Fortunately, parents get to teach their children as they wish. The deference of others is irrelevant. Sadly, though, it can lead to teaching hatred, bigotry, and racism to children, as we see all too often. But, it remains the parents' choice, as it should. Our schools should be presenting alternative viewpoints. As children grow into adults, they should be able to reason their way to their own beliefs. Some do. Some just continue in the path set up by their parents, for better or worse.

For me, what my parents did ended up being irrelevant to my beliefs as an adult. I came to those on my own.

[Leontius]

34. Seems like the people who have fear issues are usually non-believers

maybe you should examine the link between those fears and non-belief.

[MineralMan]

37. At age 5, there are no believers or non-believers.

At age 5, we're not capable of that level of reasoning. Such things are matters for adults.

I spent my childhood and early teen years as a solid believer in the Christian mythology. It was only later that I looked at it from a different viewpoint. I merely accepted what was taught me until I was able to think for myself.

[Leontius]

64. You were not capable of that level of reasoning at that age

many others are and do. And yet the link between early fears and non-belief remains unexplored and unexamined though evidently quite a common theme among this group.

[okasha]

95. Really?

What about all those gushy posts about how «My kid's only four and he's already decided for himself that there's no god»?

[cbayer]

96. I got your answer to that right here, okasha.

NOT believing in a god or gods is the default position.

Except when it's not.

[trotsky]

103. This is really fascinating.

You are one of the #1 trumpeters of the "Nones," making sure to mention that many "Nones," while they lack religion, DO believe in god(s). In other words, you like to point out there's a distinction between having god beliefs and having religion. Yet here you mock the very thing you like to point out.

indeed...

[MineralMan]

97. I stand by my statement.

Religious belief is something adults have or don't have. Children are too easily influenced by their parents, and often change their beliefs later.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

65. My experience has been that the more extremely religious people

seem to be the most fearful - of death and everything else. I never quite understood this, since supposedly when you die you go off to live with Jesus in perfect bliss forever, or something like that - unless you were bad, and then you go to hell to burn in fire forever (but God loves us, right?).

My parents were not especially religious, and I never got any of the hellfire stuff (we went to a Congregational, now UCC church). Religion was never pushed very hard on me. I don't remember where I learned the scary prayer, maybe from a grandmother (though they weren't extremely religious, either). But it did scare me. It may have been because I was a kind of hyper kid with an overactive imagination; I was always fretting about something dire. The prayer made me worry that I'd die and God would get me and take me away - not to hell, necessarily, but I'd be snatched from my bed and be gone somehow. It seriously creeped me out until I was old enough to conclude that God was in the same category as Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny, and he wasn't going to take me away in the middle of the night.

[EvilAL]

39. Yeah it's weird for sure.

I never liked the "if I should die before I wake" part. What the fuck?
I never prayed, but I was aware of the poem/prayer.

It'd be like saying "If I should take a 100 Mph slapshot to the face" in your hockey warm-up chant. Kinda makes you not want to dive in front of that puck... heheheh

[MineralMan]

43. It seems there were two very different reactions to it

among children. That's very interesting, I think.

[EvilAL]

49. Yeah,

it's weird. Usually anything with dying in your sleep in it would be frightening to a kid. Some kids see the part of their souls being taken by God to be the comfort in it I guess.

[2naSalit]

40. It's the first poem I memorized

But my mother and grandmother both made me kneel at my bedside and recite it as a bedtime prayer... this was begun in the 1950s. My perception of it included death because death was acknowledged as a part of the life cycle, though looked upon with fear. When I asked them about it they told me that reciting it before bedtime was making a conscious plea to god to take care of me because as I slept, in their reckoning, I was unable to ask for salvation at the moment of death and this protected me either way. I was never haunted by the death aspect because I had little exposure to death first hand though I was aware that it happened regularly and was going to happen to everyone eventually.

It doesn't have a negative influence on me except that it's based on a christian philosophy as it is perceived today, which is something I don't subscribe to.

[MineralMan]

42. Thanks for your perspective.

I never actually said it as a prayer. It was just on my wall. I do remember reading it and thinking about it a lot, though.

[EvilAL]

50. I'd seen it around and figured it was a prayer kids would say.

Like one of those bedtime kneeling next to your bed type prayers..

[2naSalit]

51. When I was a child I was accepting of it

and its meaning. As I grew older, and having had several relatives from opposing sects arguing over what religion I would choose and forcing me to attend each of their religious sessions such that I was in a church more often than left to my own mind, I rejected them all and was called "a snake" and ostracized by most for decades.

Fortunately things have changed and most, who are still with us, just let me be and do what I feel is appropriate. I am very religious, I just don't subscribe to organized sects because they are too divisive and controlling.

It's an interesting OP and I was intrigued by the topic, thanks for posting.

[moobu2]

44. That prayer was written in the 1600's when a lot of children died

of what we consider common ailments today. Almost any sort of infection was potentially lethal. The prayer looks like a reflection of that reality.

[EvilAL]

52. Makes sense.

Kinda like how Ring around the Rosie was about the plague or TB or something like that.

[EvilAL]

47. Also when Homer made Bart

the scarey clown bed when he was a toddler and he looks at the clown and he imagines the clown saying "If you should die before you wake.. (creepy laugh)"
then Bart later all stressed out "Can't sleep, clown will eat me... can't sleep, clown will eat me"
lol

[katanalori]

60. My non-religious father.....

taught us a new version of this prayer (to say when mom was not around):

"Now I lay me down to sleep
In my little bed;
If I die before I wake,
How will I know I'm dead?"

[DryRain]

63. I can honestly say I shared the OP's opinion when young

I was taught this by my non-church-going mother.

I recited it dutifully from about 5-8.

At nine, I lost a relative to death, and said the prayer the very last time that night of her death.

I also sang in the church's children's choir, went to Sunday School for 11 of 12 years of public school years.

But, when the choir prepared to sing "Onward Christian Soldiers" in church on Memorial Day Sunday, in about 7th grade, I refused to show up that Sunday.

There were probably a dozen other ways the church influenced young people like me in those days, where we were made insensitive to various issues, as long as we professed our belief in God and Jesus as our Savior. I don't remember them all. This thread topic brought these two back to my mind.

[Control-Z]

66. It is a sick and twisted prayer.

From as young as I can remember my sister and I were made to say that prayer. We were taught to include, "god bless" mommy, daddy and each other at the end of the prayer. So, starting at a very young age, I went to bed each night in fear that one of us would die in our sleep. I realized that fear at the age of 7 when my mother did, in fact, die.

My father still made us say that prayer after my mother died. I believed I was cursed and became terrified of sleeping, sure that I would die, or that my sister or father would, if I slept. I prayed harder and longer each night, certain that I would be punished with death if I didn't. And at the end of my prayers, when I said god bless mommy, daddy, sister... I started adding the names of everyone I could think of that I loved and didn't want to die.

The list grew over the many long and sleepless nights - when I would remember yet another someone I loved who needed to be on it - until it was so long it took me hours to finish praying. If I accidentally skipped someone on the list I would have to start the prayer over. If I started dozing off before I got through the list, I had to start over. I made bargains and new conditions for years and years. It was a nightly hell of crippling, ritual prayer - begging for my life, and for the life of everyone I loved or even ever met.

[cbayer]

67. Your story is so poignant and heart breaking.

I can't even imagine.

[jdadd]

92. My grandmother, a former schoolteacher....

changed the last few lines for us grandchildren, Probably because she thought them scary too...We recited "and in the morning when we wake,we give the lord our soul to shape."

[MineralMan]

93. Sensible

You won't find that prayer today. It has been changed, and that is a good thing.

[applegrove]

94. My grandmother used to make me say that when I spent the night at her and granddad's house.

It ended with god bless everybody in the family. Good memories. Thanks.

[Phillip McCleod]

98. funny i barely recall being about 4yo and having a similar chat with my mom

during bedtime prayers. i wanted to know if *she* was going to die before *i* woke. turns out as she tells the story i had been getting up in the middle of every night and standing vigil over her while she slept until one time she woke up to find me counting her fingers. that was the last time we said that prayer at bedtime. grace at dinner lasted a few more years though. (she's agnostic/atheist now)

[Phillip McCleod]

99. another one is 'will you swear to god on a bible?'

i got that one about age 12 after getting caught shoplifting from kmart. my dad made me swear to god with my hand on a bible that i had never done it before and wouldn't again. of course i did swear. and of course i did lie. then i laid in bed in a state of cognitive dissonance about my eternal soul for a few hours. eventually i realized i had a choice to make. either my soul was now the devils, or there was no soul, no devil, no god. you can probably imagine how i chose.

that it *is* a choice that one can make even when as young as 12 says something about the relative omnipotence of god. or should i say omnimpotence?

[cbayer]

100. So, you gave up your god in order to feel better about lying?

Wow, that's some seriously twisted logic.

[Phillip McCleod]

107. hey i didn't invent the ultimatum.

i was 12 and made a choice on the spot. it was that easy as i said my parents didn't do indoctrination so much. it was a moment of clarity, of seeing through a big lie thanks to a little one.

[cbayer]

109. No, but you certainly made hay with the *ultimatum*.

Sounds pretty convenient.

I suspect you might have been atheistic before that, which is cool.

[Phillip McCleod]

112. it didn't feel like hay making at the time.

atheistic before age of 12? questioning maybe. as i said my folks weren't too rigid. i knew what reincarnation was and my sunday school teacher didn't like it too much.

[okasha]

110. Your parents «didn't do indoctrination much,»

yet your father required you to «swear to god on a Bible»?

Strange.

[Phillip McCleod]

111. 'strange' is the right word for my dad.

he was a ministers son with his own ideas of how to do things and has changed a lot since then.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

101. I think it was taught in every home and Sunday School

across the nation. I can remember being too afraid to fall asleep until exhaustion claimed me.

[gtar100]

102. For someone who has already converted to Christianity, the poem is understandable.

That's because the focal point of being "saved" is about what happens to you when you die. But for a child, the emphasis on dying so quickly and so soon (that very night or that very day) really requires a bit more explanation to put the meaning into perspective. Otherwise it really is a morose and depressing little poem.

[trotsky]

104. I learned the first one as a small child.

Never bothered me a bit until I grew a little older and was able to engage in critical thought. Then, like it did for you, it greatly disturbed me.

[MineralMan]

105. It seems like it bothered some people as children,

but not others. I find that interesting, and can't explain it, really. Some were bothered a great deal by it. For me, it was only a minor thing, but a couple of people in this thread had much worse experiences from it than I did.

[trotsky]

106. Some people are more easily indoctrinated than others, I think.

It took me a while to start to analyze and question many of the things I was taught. I can't really say there was a definite tipping point, lots of little things that just didn't make sense but I filed them away until that drawer started to overflow and I couldn't shove anything more in there.

[okasha]

108. I expect it's different life experiences.

When I was taught this prayer, a polio epidemic was in full spate. I knew from my mother's work with the March of Dimes that children could and did die. A first grade classmate, who had survived, could walk only with a leg brace. Others lived but weren't so fortunate. I think it took about two minutes reflection to decide I'd rather die and go to heaven than be imprisoned in an iron lung for decades. Then ,when I was in second grade, a classmte died of pneumonia. A few years later, a cousin died of an undiagnosed heart defect in his sixth grade classroom.

If your parents had to buy guinea pigs to explain death to you, you were relatively sheltered.