Where Science and Religion Coexist

[cbayer]

http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/25/where-science-and-religion-coexist/

JANUARY 25, 2013, 1:41 AM
By SASKIA DE ROTHSCHILD


The Dalai Lama with Buddhist and Western scholars during the third day of the Mind & Life XXVI conference.

MUNDGOD, India — Religion and science have not always been easy friends, as Galileo could attest.

But over the last week scientists and Buddhist scholars have been working in this small Tibetan enclave in southern India to prove that these two worlds can not only co-exist — but benefit each another.

It is the 26th edition of the Mind & Life Conference and the first held in a monastery, for thousands of Buddhist monks gathered here. His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the leader of Tibetan Buddhism, greeted the scientists last Friday and introduced the week-long dialogue about science and religion.

The examination is rooted in the personal story of the Dalai Lama. During his secluded training as a child in Tibet, he would gaze at the night sky through a telescope on the roof of the Potala Palace. He looked at the moon with such intensity he realized the shadows and asperities on its surface contradicted the Tibetan belief that it was lit from within. He took his findings to his tutors.

more at link

[tama]

1. Worth watching and listening

In addition to very interesting presentations and discussions, the atmosphere is very friendly and supportive, and there is lot of laughter.

[trotsky]

2. The key is he understands which one "wins" when they conflict.

“If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.” - Dalai Lama XIV

[cleanhippie]

3. Unfortunately, many here refuse or are unable to accept that.

Imagine the outrage were one to say...

“If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Christianity to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.”

Which, of course, is true about many of the claims of Christianity.

[tama]

4. Other keys are "meanwhile" and "cooperation"

And as has been shown, traditionally extroceptive Western methodology of neurology, cognitive science, medical sciences etc. can benefit much from cooperation with Buddhist etc. introceptive methodologies. And working together for win-win of common good, they can do better service to human kind, which also most scientists see as the ethical purpose of science.

And as scientific research goes on, meanwhile we can use contemplative and other methods tested and used for ages without waiting final confirmation from science, which as a whole may and quite likely will keep on changing radically and unpredictably in respect to methodologies, philosophical presuppositions, social institutions etc. We have no idea what science will be like in 50 or 100 years. Maybe we learn to travel to other planets just by contemplating mathematics, as in one science fiction book I read, instead of relying on rocket science and other subluminal methodologies.

There was e.g. some discussion about chackras and subtle energies that are well known experiental "subjective" phenomena in Buddhist practice (etc.), and Dalai Lama said that that is just "Buddhist business" that scientists need not to concern with. Scientists asked, sounding little worried, that does Dalai Lama mean that they shouldn't study those phenomena. Dalai Lama clarified that they can and should be studied by Western methodology from 3rd person view if and when such methodology is found, maybe in 50 years. Wise answer, IMHO, but maybe some methods can be found earlier than that.

[skepticscott]

10. "As has been shown" Where?

"Benefit much"? How?

Show us the significant discoveries that science could not have made without Buddhism.

[tama]

11. Links from OP

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2225634/Is-worlds-happiest-man-Brain-scans-reveal-French-monk-abnormally-large-capacity-joy-meditation.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/14/magazine/14BUDDHISM.html

You can search for the scientific papers for your self and/or watch the discussions yourself to get more information of the empirical studies going on about effects of contemplative practices on neuroplasticity etc.

[skepticscott]

16. Wow, you are capable

of resorting to evidence..I knew you could if you tried. But are you sure all of that science isn't just a meaningless and arbitrary social construct? Or that "empirical", "contemplative" and "neuroplasticity" even have meaningful definitions? Or that "definition" even has a meaningful "definition"?

[tama]

17. Jerk

Yes, that was my initial reaction to your post. Fucking jerk go fuck yourself.

And now I take a deep breath, let go of that emotion and ask you, why do you feel the need to continuously irritate and test the patience of others until they blow fuse? Yes, you do succeed, once in a while, does that make you feel better? Are you borderline? Or just attacking straw men to score points and "win" in your imaginary game? Ask your self, I don't have the answer.

And as for answer, if there was a genuine question: those are all meaningful on the level of conventional truth, which is just fine.

[Phillip McCleod]

5. i admit i don't quite understand american fascination with

a deposed monarch. but then i don't get our fetish for british royalty either.

[cbayer]

6. Are you talking about the Dalai Lama?

[Phillip McCleod]

7. yes it was something thom hartmann said one time

and caught my attention. then i don't know much about him.

[cbayer]

8. I find him pretty interesting. He did go into exile to India at one point, but

I never thought of this Dalai Lama as a deposed monarch. More as the current in a lineage of spiritual leaders.

[Phillip McCleod]

9. me too until i heard it put that way but it is true.

to restore the dalai lama is to restore a theocratic monarch to power. i doubt he'd take the job now anyway from what i can tell he's sincerely a humble guy.

[tama]

12. He's democrat (and communist)

"As early as the 1960s, I have repeatedly stressed that Tibetans need a leader, elected freely by the Tibetan people, to whom I can devolve power. Now, we have clearly reached the time to put this into effect," the 76-year-old told an audience at his traditional appearance to mark the anniversary of the Tibetan people's 1959 uprising against communist Chinese authorities in Lhasa, and his own escape to India.

Next week the Tibetan community in exile will vote to elect a new Kalon Tripa, or prime minister, who will, depending on the constitutional changes, take on the Dalai Lama's political functions.

The Dalai Lama, who is revered by his followers as the 14th reincarnation of the Buddha Avalokiteshvara who achieved spiritual enlightenment, said many of his supporters had asked him not to take the step.

"Since I made my intention clear I have received repeated and earnest requests both from within Tibet and outside, to continue to provide political leadership," he said. "My desire to devolve authority has nothing to do with a wish to shirk responsibility. It is to benefit Tibetans in the long run."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/10/dalai-lama-retires-from-political-life-tibet

So maybe the American fascination is just for "a sincerely humble guy" and a compassionate spiritual adviser.

[Phillip McCleod]

13. maybe so.

one is often fascinated by that which is very different and "sincerely humble" is about as different from "American" as one can get.

[tama]

14. "American"

is strange beast. One of the most sincerely humble guys I have ever met was American. Well, a Native American Roadman.

And thinking that that kind of American human being is the "other" of the "American" is... well, hmm, errr... hyphenated.

[tama]

15. PS

I remembered one striking and surprising difference to Western social norms and expectations: Native American proud. During the various rituals it is customary to show and tell how strong and beautiful you are and how much you love yourself, how proud you are of being you. It's unashamed and guilt free and not based on social comparison of putting others down and feeling superior, in that way it is also at the same time as humble as one gets.

It's also a good reminder that also Buddhist metta contemplation of loving kindness starts from self-love. Without self love it is difficult or impossible to love also the other.

[pinto]

18. We often miss the "third leg" where Science, Religion and Art connect -

In construct and context.