Argentine Cardinal (now Pope Francis) Named in Kidnap Lawsuit

[moobu2]

Argentine Cardinal Named in Kidnap Lawsuit
April 17, 2005|From Associated Press
VATICAN CITY — A human rights lawyer has filed a criminal complaint against an Argentine cardinal mentioned as a possible contender to become pope, accusing him of involvement in the 1976 kidnappings of two priests.

Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio's spokesman Saturday called the allegation "old slander."

The complaint filed in a court in the Argentine capital on Friday accused Bergoglio, the archbishop of Buenos Aires, of involvement in the abduction of two Jesuit priests by the military dictatorship, reported the newspaper Clarin. The complaint does not specify the nature of Bergoglio's alleged involvement.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/17/world/fg-cardinal17

Argentina: Catholic Church was "complicit in crimes during the military regime"
Thursday, February 14, 2013

A court in Argentina said that the Catholic Church was complicit in some of the crimes committed during the military regime between 1976 and 1983.
In what correspondents described as a landmark ruling, the court said that the Catholic Church hierarchy closed his eyes and sometimes colluded, with the murders of progressive priests.
The judges said that even today the church is reluctant to investigate crimes committed during the military regime.
The statement came after the court sentenced three former members of the armed forces to life imprisonment for the murder of two priests in 1976.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mundo/ultimas_noticias/2013/02/130213_ultnot_argentina_iglesia_catolica_complice_crimenes_dictadura_msd.shtml

[cbayer]

1. WOW!! 1976. You couldn't find any more recent dirt?

[moobu2]

3. Still looking but murder is pretty serious no matter how much time has passed.

[cbayer]

6. Well, good luck to you. I'm sure you can dig something up, lol.

[cleanhippie]

7. Do you feel the same about the child rape that took place 35+ years ago too?

[2ndAmForComputers]

16. I look and look at this reply

and I weep for humanity.

Wow.

Just wow.

[cbayer]

17. Here you go!

[Warren Stupidity]

18. Do you understand the importance of that time period in Argentina's history?

[cbayer]

19. I know a little about it, but I have also done my own research on

this particular incident and digging this up is ridiculous.

Priests were being tortured and murdered. He was a priest.

If this is the worst that someone can dig up, that's not necessarily bad news.

So nice to see you again!

[Warren Stupidity]

29. You should have stopped at "I know little about it".

Bergoglio became a priest at 32, nearly a decade after losing a lung due to respiratory illness and quitting his chemistry studies. Despite his late start, he was leading the local Jesuit community within four years, holding the post of provincial of the Argentine Jesuits from 1973 to 1979.

After six years as provincial, he held several academic posts and pursued further study in Germany. He was appointed auxiliary bishop of Buenos Aires in 1992 and archbishop in 1998.

Bergoglio's career coincided with the bloody 1976-1983 military dictatorship, during which up to 30,000 suspected leftists were kidnapped and killed -- which prompted sharp questions about his role.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/13/us-pope-succession-bergoglio-idUSBRE92C15X20130313

He was not "just a priest".

[cbayer]

45. Why are you so condescending?

Do you really think that helps you communicate and discuss with others?

See you around the campfire.

[Warren Stupidity]

47. "WOW!! 1976. You couldn't find any more recent dirt?" - project much?

[cbayer]

48. Point taken. That was snarky and condescending and meant to insult/challenge

the OP.

[Warren Stupidity]

49. you snarked and condescended to everyone in this subthread.

and then complain that I am condescending in return?

And your response when I point that out is, "but I did it on purpose."

WTF?

[trotsky]

51. Nothing new here.

Hypocrisy and self-righteousness seem to run in the family.

[cbayer]

52. No, just the OP and 2ndAM, and both on purpose. But I did not do that to you.

So my question remains. Why are you so condescending?

[skepticscott]

56. And the box of Kleenex

was meant to be respectful and "build bridges", right?

Sheesh. Hypocrisy on top of hypocrisy.

[moobu2]

2. Argentine court: church complicit in "dirty war"

A court in Argentina's western province of La Rioja found Feb. 13 that the country's Catholic Church was complicit with crimes committed during the dictatorship's "dirty war" on leftist dissidents between 1976 and 1983. The judgement said that the Church hierarchy turned a blind eye to abuses that it clearly knew of, while some members collaborated more actively. It further stated that the hierarchy remains "indifferent" to this past today. The judgement came in a case concerning the slaying of Carlos de Dios Murias and Gabriel Longueville, two members of the Movement of Third World Priests (MSTM), a grouping of left-wing Catholic clergy, who disappeared in 1976, their mutiliated bodies dumped near train tracks. Three retired military officers were given life terms in the case.

http://ww4report.com/node/11993

[okasha]

4. According to a story on Yahoo News

Bergoglio's involvement in the two priests' kidnapping consisted in getting them released. What an awful guy!

"Both men were freed after Bergoglio took extraordinary, behind-the-scenes action to save them — including persuading dictator Jorge Videla's family priest to call in sick so that he could say Mass in the junta leader's home, where he privately appealed for mercy. His intervention likely saved their lives, but Bergoglio never shared the details until Rubin interviewed him for the 2010 biography.

"Bergoglio — who ran Argentina's Jesuit order during the dictatorship — told Rubin that he regularly hid people on church property during the dictatorship, and once gave his identity papers to a man with similar features, enabling him to escape across the border. But all this was done in secret, at a time when church leaders publicly endorsed the junta and called on Catholics to restore their "love for country" despite the terror in the streets."

http://news.yahoo.com/francis-first-pope-americas-193844474.html

[moobu2]

8. Must be 2 other priests the new Pope's authorized biographer/PR spokesperson was talking about

The 2 priests I posted about were tortured and murdered.

There are a plenty of accusations against him and the church in Argentina that will come out now that he was selected as the new God spokesperson. Like this one from your link.

Bergoglio (the new pope) also was accused of turning his back on a family that lost five relatives to state terror,
including a young woman who was 5-months' pregnant before she was kidnapped and killed in 1977. The De la Cuadra family appealed to the leader of the Jesuits in Rome, who urged Bergoglio to help them; Bergoglio then assigned a monsignor to the case. Months passed before the monsignor came back with a written note from a colonel: It revealed that the woman had given birth in captivity to a girl who was given to a family "too important" for the adoption to be reversed.
Despite this written evidence in a case he was personally involved with, Bergoglio testified in 2010 that he didn't know about any stolen babies until well after the dictatorship was over.
"Bergoglio has a very cowardly attitude when it comes to something so terrible as the theft of babies.

And maybe this also from your link.

But Bregman said Bergoglio's own statements proved church officials knew from early on that the junta was torturing and killing its citizens, and yet publicly endorsed the dictators. "The dictatorship could not have operated this way without this key support,"

[okasha]

9. They're the same priests mentioned in your link,.

which indicates they were released alive.

Tortured yes. Murdered, no.

[moobu2]

11. I guess the conviction of 3 former military guys for torturing and killing the 2 priests

can be overturned since you say they were never killed.

From BBC

The statement came after the court sentenced three former members of the armed forces to life imprisonment for the murder of two priests in 1976.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mundo/ultimas_noticias/2013/02/130213_ultnot_argentina_iglesia_catolica_complice_crimenes_dictadura_msd.shtml

[cbayer]

10. He's also got only one lung! I am truly afraid.

[moobu2]

15. I think I see where the confusion is maybe.

In the AP story it says "At least two cases directly involved Bergoglio" Then the story goes on to talk about the one case of the 2 priests who were kidnapped and torture but were released alive. The story doesn't mention the details of the other case and maybe that was the one where the priests were kidnapped, tortured and shot to death. Maybe.


"At least two cases directly involved Bergoglio. One examined the torture of two of his Jesuit priests – Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics – who were kidnapped in 1976 from the slums where they advocated liberation theology. Yorio accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over to the death squads by declining to tell the regime that he endorsed their work."

http://news.yahoo.com/francis-first-pope-americas-193844474.html

[okasha]

33. Yes.

The link in your OP led to a story about the two who were released, not the two who were murdered.

Now that that's clarified, what was the disposition of the charges?

[xilify]

5. LOL n/t

[struggle4progress]

12. So who exactly filed the 2005 lawsuit and what was the outcome? That was eight years ago,

so something more must be known by now

[nonoyes]

13. You want these Popes to be free of criminal charges? Elect an atheist!

About the best way to go when electing Popes.

[cbayer]

14. Yes, because everyone knows that only atheists are crime free!

[muriel_volestrangler]

20. "questions remain over his role during Argentina's dictatorship"

The main charge against Bergoglio involves the kidnapping of two Jesuit priests, Orland Yorio and Francisco Jalics, who were taken by Navy officers in May 1976 and held under inhumane conditions for the missionary work they conducted in the country's slums, a politically risky activity at the time.

His chief accuser is journalist Horacio Verbitsky, the author of a book on the church called "El Silencio" ("The Silence&quot , which claims that Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection from the two priests, effectively giving the military a green light for their abduction.

The claims are based on conversations with Jalics, who was released after his ordeal and later moved to a German monastery.

Bergoglio has called the allegations "slander" and holds that, on the contrary, he moved behind the scenes to save the lives of the two priests and others that he secretly hid from the death squads. In one case, he claims he even gave his identity papers to one dissident who looked like him so that he could flee the country.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/14/pope-francis-argentina-military-junta

[cbayer]

21. Apparently it was more than politically risky to work in the slums at that time.

I read an article that said he withdrew protection because they refused to stop going to the slums. He apparently felt he could not provide them with protection at that point and would be putting others at risk to continue to provide it.

I am most sure that it was a very complicated time and that the true story will never be completely known. But I fail to see that it has much relevance at this time, over 35 years later.

[muriel_volestrangler]

22. I think "it was all a long time ago" is a thin excuse for ignoring it

Yes, I'm sure it wasn't easy then; but this is about someone who is meant to be a moral beacon for a billion people, and now gets to appoint ambassadors and head a state. I think that makes his behaviour with a dictatorship, when he was in a position of some authority, a valid subject of discussion. Notice that he has been remarkably unwilling to discuss it even now. That is not a good sign.

[trotsky]

23. Not just ignoring it...

but insulting and mocking those who dare to bring it up. Not a good sign either.

[Warren Stupidity]

31. It would be unbelievable if it weren't completely predictable.

Authoritarian, hierarchical, irrational. What could possibly go wrong?

This.

[cbayer]

28. Well, when someone gets more substantial information on what happened,

I would be glad to look at it.

Looks to me like he discussed it at length, just not in open court. I suspect many were at risk, including himself.

It's thin, at best, and he's got some attributes that give me some modicum of hope that he may deal with the current issues of the church more openly that those before him.

I have no doubt that there were those that had stories on every single cardinal ready to roll.

[moobu2]

41. Yeah, it was kind like do we elect someone that covered up child rape? or

someone who probably turned his head while more liberal priests were tortured and murdered. Ok, lets go with the guy that said nothing while liberal priests were dragged off, tortured and murdered. Hmmm that was a real tough decision.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

43. And your evidence that Bergoglio did that is?

Apparently, little more than an unsubstantiated rumor.

[cbayer]

46. I am sure that some kind of dirt could be dug up on each of these guys.

Frankly, those who chose to serve in countries like Argentina, working with the poor under both dangerous and very unstable conditions, during times of political upheaval and extreme violence, are going to get more leeway from me than those who worked, say, in the US covering up heinous crimes.

So, no, it's not a tough decision. As it appears not to be a tough decision for some to assist in a smear campaign based on extremely flimsy information.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. Didn't work for the previous generation of fascists.

But who knows, maybe the boomer era fascists all get a pass.

[okasha]

34. Does the article say how, precisely,

he «withdrew his pretection?»

One of the duties of a Jesuit Provincial is to assign the priests in his area to their posts as pastors, teachers, outreach workers, whatever. I wonder if «withdrawing protection» was simply a refusal to give the victims official assignments in dangerous areas, and the fathers courageously went in on their own?

[cbayer]

44. The only thing I saw was that they refused to comply with his order to stop going

into certain areas, so he withdrew their "protection". Not clear on what that protection consisted of.

[struggle4progress]

24. "... The evidence is sketchy and contested ..."

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. Well, if it were detailed and uncontested, I'd hope he'd have been defrocked by now

and sued, if not thrown in prison. That it's based on what one of the priests says has to be troubling.

[struggle4progress]

30. There's another piece in today's Guardian citing the same book:

... the Argentine navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022501213

It took me less than five minutes to discover:

... In 1979, at the time of the alleged IAHRC incident, Bergoglio was neither a Cardinal nor even an Archbishop. He became a bishop in 1992 and a cardinal in 1998. In 1979, he seems to have been the director of a religious teaching institution. In 1979, the island of El Silencio may indeed have been the site for Sunday retreats by the Archbishop of Buenos Aires, but the Archbishop then was Juan Carlos Aramburu ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2502248

Frankly, I don't know whether that peculiar inaccuracy comes from the columnist Hugh O'Shaughnessy or whether it originated in Verbitsky's 2005 book El Silencio, but it does suggest to me that some care is appropriate when reading such newspaper article assertions

What exactly, for example, is meant by the claim Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection from the two priests?

[moobu2]

37. where it says,

"Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires,"

OK, see if you can follow me because I might screw this up but I will try, here goes.

Horacio Verbitsky wrote El Silencio in 2005, I'm almost positive.

So, in 2005 Mr. Verbitsky was not saying Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio (now Pope Francis) was Archbishop at the time of the incident that occured in the 1970's. Mr. Verbitsky was saying Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, who is now Pope Francis, was the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires in 2005 the year he told the story and the year he wrote the book. And Pope Francis was Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires in 2005.

Here's your quote.

the Argentine navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate ...

Here's the entire quote where you lifted that snip from.

What one did not hear from any senior member of the Argentinian hierarchy was any expression of regret for the church's collaboration and in these crimes. The extent of the church's complicity in the dark deeds was excellently set out by Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina's most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence). He recounts how the Argentinian navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate. The most shaming thing for the church is that in such circumstances Bergoglio's name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to chose the successor of John Paul II. What scandal would not have ensued if the first pope ever to be elected from the continent of America had been revealed as an accessory to murder and false imprisonment

Comprendo?

[struggle4progress]

39. I found an article by Verbitsky, making the claim:

... El mismo Grasselli vendió al grupo de tareas de la ESMA en enero de 1979 la isla "El silencio", del Arzobispado de Buenos Aires, donde Aramburu comía sus asados de fin de semana, para que allí se alojara un grupo de prisioneros de modo que la Comisión Interamericana de Derechos Humanos no los encontrara cuando inspeccionara las instalaciones militares ...
http://www.pagina12.com.ar/1999/99-11/99-11-28/pag11.htm

... Grasselli himself sold the island "Silence", where the Archbishop Aramburu of Buenos Aires ate his weekend meals, to ESMA in January 1979, so they could hide there a group of prisoners from the American Commission on Human Rights when it inspected military facilities ...

So this story might involve a prior Archbishop Aramburu, but I see no obvious connection to Bergoglio

Apparently the Guardian's columnist garbled Verbitsky's claim

[okasha]

40. Lo siento,

pero me parece claramente que no comprendes. Otra vez, por favor: que succedio con la causa legal conta el arcobispo Bergoglio?

[Purveyor]

26. No nazi links to hitler yet? I'm disappointed. /sarcasm

"you people" are pathetic, indeed!

[goldent]

57. The hitler links are coming

Don't forget that Hitler was rumored to have escaped Germany and moved to Argentina! I think the pope is not quite old enough to be Hitler, but make-up can do wonders. The non-stamp collectors will figure it out soon enough.

[DonCoquixote]

27. I get a bad feeling

That this man was meant as a blatant FU to Chavez, Kircnner and the rest of the leftist latin Americans, if so, I hope they can get people in Asia, because latin America is getting tired of being the churches breadbox.

[Warren Stupidity]

32. Indeed, they anointed a collaborator with the generals.

[okasha]

35. I think they probably know

Hugo's dead.

[Meshuga]

36. From the footage I have seen on tv so far

People in Argentina seem overjoyed. Whether they should be celebrating or not is another question.

Cristina Kichner released a letter congratulating the Pope and the Argentinian people. I saw footage of Dilma Rousseff congratulating the Pope and looking forward to his visit to Rio de Janeiro in July. Nicolás Maduro seemed excited saying that it is "Latin America's time" since the new pope is from Latin America.

These are people who would be very concerned if there was any sunstancial evidence that the new Pope had any role or collaboration with the Junta. But, from my understanding, besides his conservative views on social issues (like gay marriage), the new Pope is seen as someone who is an advocate for the poor in the region.

[moobu2]

38. It's just good politics for public figues and other interested parties to say things like that.

The general population is just glad they picked a fellow Argentinian. Doesn't mean anything at all in relation to what was posted above. And it doesn't forgive his possible involvement in kidnapping, torture and murder and stealing babies for wealthy people..

[Meshuga]

42. True

It is smart politics to make such pronouncements. Especially in the case of Dilma Rousseff since Brazil has the largest catholic population. But I don't think these leaders see the choice for a new Pope as a FU like reply #27 suggests.

While they may certainly see him as not the best choice since this guy holds some obvious conservative positions, they may see as advantageous (in other areas of common ground) to have a Jesuit cardinal from South America as the new pope.

I am not sure the allegations from the OP are a factor with these leaders since there is no substantial evidence that the new Pope collaborated with the dictatorship. The accusations should raise questions and even an investigation but it does not mean they are true.

The article in the OP even states:

Under Argentine law, an accusation can be filed with a very low threshold of evidence. A court then decides if there is cause to investigate and file charges.

I also agree that if he did all these things that he is being accused of (and I am not denying that the accusations are definitely false since elements in the Catholic Church were involved or at least silent during that time) then I would agree that it would be a big FU to these leaders. But I am not sure these leaders feel this way as suggested in the post above.

[Jim__]

53. ... For Producing Contaminated Bird Flu Vaccine-Barack Obama Named In Lawsuit

Source - http://www.zimbio.com/Pandemic+Flu+or+H5N1+influenza/articles/xBgSYxvd_XI/Austrian+Investigative+Journalist+Files+Criminal

Oh nose!!!

[struggle4progress]

54. ... In 2005 ... Bergoglio was formally accused by an Argentine lawyer in a lawsuit

of being complicit in the military’s kidnapping of two Jesuit priests ... The lawsuit was eventually dismissed ...
Man in the News | Jorge Mario Bergoglio
A Conservative With a Common Touch
By EMILY SCHMALL and LARRY ROHTER
Published: March 13, 2013

[struggle4progress]

55. ... Argentine artist Alfredo Perez Esquivel, 81, himself a torture victim and winner

of the 1980 Nobel Peace Prize for his human rights advocacy, came to Bergoglio's defence in an interview with BBC radio. "There were bishops who were accomplices of the dictatorship, but Bergoglio was not," he said. "There is no link between him and the dictatorship" ...
Pope junta claims 'a smear and a lie': Pell
Updated 1 hour 1 minute ago
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-03-15/pope-junta-claims-a-smear-and-a-lie-pell/4574318