How do you react when people tell you that you believe in fairy tales?

[hrmjustin]

Non-believers how do you deal with people who say you are missing something and will not get to heaven? Sorry I could not fit both questions on the title.

I have come to expect it and I just try to be polite for the most part. And say I do not believe in fairy tales. Get them with kindness.

[rug]

1. I check off #17 of the talking points list.

[hrmjustin]

3. lol!

[longship]

4. Indeed.

I love Pascal's wager. I hear that one often enough in such interactions. This one is kind of related to it. There are so many variants of the you're going to Hell gambit.

Maybe we can start categorizing them so that we can check them off like your post suggests.

"Yup! That's #17 alright."



To answer the question:

Myself, if I detect any ill intent behind the questions, I may not respond so politely. But otherwise I would simply say, "I'm sorry. I don't believe in Heaven or Hell."

That might get a discussion going which I normally handle with politeness.

[rug]

5. Oooh, we should post competing checlists!

The threads will read like this.

1. #6.

2. BS, # 39.

3. #4

4. #83.

5. #18!

6. This post was hidden by jury decision.

[longship]

7. DUzy

It sure would make interactions in the forum more succinct.

[goldent]

49. Claude Shannon would be proud

Shannon nearly single-handedly invented the field of information theory, which has some very important applications. One of the major questions of information theory is how much can you compress information. Your post is a fine demonstration of how one can take predictable content and highly compress it.

You better be careful about posting the number that follows 82 (attention moderators: I didn't actually say it)

[rug]

50. Well, now I had to google him. Interesting stuff.

[EvilAL]

60. hahah, I've seen people

doing similar things with bible quotes.
Matt 2:23
Oh ya, well John 4:12
No way, Ezek 5:11..
etc.. I just threw randoms out there, so don't say John 4:12?? fuck that.. Rev 7:13.
heheheh

[rug]

81. Proverbs 12:15-16

[EvilAL]

85. Now I know you're serious,

you didn't abbreviate it.

[truebluegreen]

6. OT, but we should all be applying Pascal's wager to global warming....

Infinite gain, finite loss.

[longship]

10. That's the problem with Pascal's wager.

People claim an infinite gain which is not likely there. But it's the infinite loss side of the wager which makes it so corrupt a wager. Plus, the premise is that one can win the wager by pretending.

I prefer not to play the game at all.

[truebluegreen]

12. I'd say you are being too literal with my suggestion.

Reboot the "wager" to show that the potential losses in ignoring climate change wildly out-weigh the possible gains. And forget the part about "pretending".

[longship]

13. Well, this thread/group isn't about climate.

I was speaking about Pascal's wager, which involves belief in God.

Please stick to thread topic.
Thanks.

[truebluegreen]

14. That's probably why I put "OT" for "off-topic" in my first post.

Please pay attention.
Thanks.

[BlueJazz]

2. I usually treat them with more courtesy and kindness than vice-versa

[dimbear]

8. I love fairy tales, and have studied them a bit. It's remarkable how far back they go,

the changes they make as they migrate from nation to nation and age to age, and it's often been noted how well they model the same sorts of alterations in sacred texts. Fairy tales are the wisdom literature of the young and the common people.

It's very instructive to get a view at the original edition of Grimm's Marchen and compare it with the later editions which had to be edited to suit the tender mercies of parents. That first edition is a little hard to find.

[on point]

9. If mine are fact based and theirs are delusional, I demote them to fools and put them on ignore

[rrneck]

11. I send Einstein riding a unicorn over to kick thier ass. nt

[Iggo]

15. "I ain't missin' shit."

That's usually the end of it.

[LostOne4Ever]

16. Are we talking about

Theism in general or Christianity in particular?

The existence of a god does not necessitate an afterlife, so I am assuming you mean Christianity in particular. To be quite honest, I find the God of the Old Testament to be malicious and cruel. I would not be bothered by spending eternity away from him. Similarly, I don't feel like im missing something. Rather I feel like I can now truly value life the way it should be valued.

Now a question to those theist to which it can apply (as I know not all of you are Christian, literalist, believe in salvation by faith, etc.)

Lets say that you are saved by your faith and a family member who you dearly dearly love isn't. How can you enjoy Heaven knowing full well that your loved one is not with you and more than likely in Hell suffering unbelievable pain and suffering without end? Not only that they are suffering there with others who not only did not believe but who spent their whole lives trying to make this world a better place and helping those in need? How can you call that heaven? How can you call a God like that just, benevolent, and loving?

I do not mean any disrespect, but that sounds more like hell to me.

[hrmjustin]

17. I mean theism in general.

I don't believe in hell. I believe God brings us all home to his kingdom. If there is a truly evil soul that God does not let enter the kingdom of heaven then he makes their soul no longer exist.

[LostOne4Ever]

18. I like your answer

I like your answer

Anyway if its God in general, I see that god as must likely being the God of Thomas Paine. He/she/it is a Scientist running an experiment. He/she/it is indifferent to us and we lose nothing in not believe in him/her/it. Once again, the existence of this god does not necessitate an afterlife, or a heaven or hell; the same holds true in the reverse.

Further, If there is an afterlife I have no idea if a belief in a deity has any impact on whether I get in or not. Should there be a heaven, hell, and anything between then I feel that the way we live our lives more than likely determines where we go and that there are probably ways to change between these various stations after we die.

So no, I dont feel like im missing anything or risking losing heaven.

[hrmjustin]

19. Sometimes I wonder if we are an experiment.

[LostOne4Ever]

20. That is what I thought as a Deist

Things make more sense that way.

But, I have come more and more to believe even a scientist would intervene to stop the suffering of man kind. I just can't believe one who had the power to start the experiment would not step in to stop a husband from pouring acid on the face of his wife and child. Would not step in to help children being raped and having their limbs cut off in Africa. And so forth.

This is why I prefer to see myself as an implicit atheist. I can see it as being possible, I would like for it to be true, but I just could not believe anymore.

[Marrah_G]

21. I don't ever get told that

I generally keep my religion to myself unless the person I am speaking with is of the same religion.

[dimbear]

22. BTW, the Biblical book which is most like a fairy tale is Tobit.

You many not be familiar with Tobit if you are a protestant, but it's a wonderful story with a classic fairy tale structure. The motif of the grateful dead, so important to those who study fairy tales, (and classic rock bands,) makes up the central issue. Also Tobit has the best dog in the Bible!

[cbayer]

23. Both situations involve taking the position that someone knows the truth.

"You believe in fairy tales" means I know the truth (there is no god) and you are delusional.

"You are missing something" means I know the truth (there is a god) and you are just not good enough to know it.

Both come from positions of weakness and generally indicate to me a rather profound insecurity in the person's general beliefs or lack of beliefs, because I don't think anyone knows the truth. Both statements are meant to belittle and marginalize.

I think they should be challenged as insulting, prejudiced and often even bigoted, but no further argument is necessary.

[trotsky]

24. Well that's interesting.

You accuse others of trying to belittle and marginalize, but your words are belittling, and marginalizing in doing so. Rather ironic. I'm going to continue to challenge you since that's what you say I should do, evidently.

[cleanhippie]

25. Ahh, the old "but you can't prove it doesn't exist" reply straight from the apologists play book.

How expected.

[hrmjustin]

26. You can't prove he doesn't exist.

[cleanhippie]

29. Is that a joke too?

[hrmjustin]

30. LOl just wanted to get a laugh out of you my friend.

But in the end we won't know till we die.

[cleanhippie]

32. I think that when we die, we won't know anything.

[hrmjustin]

33. Well we will find out.

[cleanhippie]

36. I don't think we will.

Knowing what we actually do know about the brain and how it works, knowing anything at all after we die seems almost infinitely improbable.

[hrmjustin]

38. Unless there is an afterlife.

But yes you are right that if there is nothing else we won't be able to know that.

[cleanhippie]

39. An "afterlife" has such a high improbability of existing, it takes the rejection of reality to think

It does.

[madrchsod]

52. from my brief experience with death, i agree...we won`t remember/know anything

[upaloopa]

31. I couldn't agree more. If a person was strong in his/her

belief or non belief there would be no need to talk about it unless someone asks for information.

[trotsky]

37. So you're condemning mission programs at all churches, then?

Sounds like it, because that's what they're organized to do: spread the "good news." Jesus commands it in the bible.

[upaloopa]

40. Yes I guess I am.

I grew up as Catholic going to Catholic school, grade school, high school and college. I never really believed in that religion or any religion even though I went to Catholic schools. I went because my parents paid for grade school and high school and I wanted to go to the college and I paid for that.
I got a good education. But I was always told I should spread the religion which I never agreed to and never did.
I think our world would be better off if there was no religion. I believe there is a higher power than myself but I can't define it or describe it from personal knowledge.
I think that organized religion has done more harm than good in human history so I would not look favorably on missions if their purpose was to bring religion.

[Warren Stupidity]

48. show me a repeatable method of observing a faerie and I will believe in faeries. nt.

[cbayer]

55. I have no idea what this has to do with the topic at hand.

[Warren Stupidity]

57. no of course you don't.

[cbayer]

59. Perhaps you could elaborate, or I guess you could just use it as an opportunity

to insult me.

Up to you.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. Uh - you started in with the antagonism. But fine...

Last edited Sun May 26, 2013, 12:35 PM - Edit history (1)

You wrote:

"You believe in fairy tales" means I know the truth (there is no god) and you are delusional.

No really it means, to me anyway, that you believe in stories about supernatural beings for which there is no observable evidence. Your belief is irrational and unconditional. On the other hand my disbelief in faeries is rational and conditional: show me objective evidence and I will change my belief.

"stories about supernatural beings" fits equally religious myths and fairy tales.

But I agree that religiosity is a form of delusional thinking.

[cbayer]

83. No antagonism meant and I'm not sure why it came across that way.

BTW, you know nothing and assume much about my beliefs or lack thereof. And based on your assumptions, you have called me irrational and, by association, delusional.

I would suggest that you probably believe in things for which there is no objective evidence. Love, for example. Does that make you irrational and delusional? If I say that love does not exist and you say you experience it, can I say that I am right and you are wrong?

[skepticscott]

58. You continue to harp on

the rather silly notion that since people can't be certain of anything to an absolute, 100% mathematical certainty, all things are equally possible and equally likely, and that no judgement whatsoever can be made that some things are far, far more likely to be true than others.

Any rational person recognizes that this is not the case. You've been educated about it many times, but you still cling to the same discredited talking points, even though you can't defend them against the most elementary arguments. Why is that?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

64. I think you're only partially right, but it brings up an interesting point

I've never heard the "you believe in fairy tales" statement in real life, or even something remotely similar. I have however, heard the "you are missing something" more times than I can count on my fingers and toes.

[hrmjustin]

65. I hear you believe in fairy tales all the time.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

66. In real life?

I hear it on the internet all the time, but never once in real life. You must live in a place with a lot of angry atheists that are mostly out of the closet.

[hrmjustin]

67. My family say it all the time to me.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

68. There's probably a familiarity there

Has a stranger or mere acquaintance ever said it to you?

[hrmjustin]

69. Yes several times.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

70. I have a really hard time believing that

in a country where atheism is so demonized that most of us stay safely tucked away in the closet, that you've run into enough vocal atheists in real life that some of them have accused you of believing in fairy tales.

[hrmjustin]

71. I live in NYC!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

72. That could make a difference

I don't know what it's like in NYC, but here in Idaho, I only actually know one other atheist that's out of the closet. It's just not something you talk about - coming out of the closet here means the loss of a job, abandonment by friends, shunning by family, etc. I run into someone proselytizing on an almost daily basis.

[hrmjustin]

73. I am so very sorry to hear that. You think people would just let people be.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

74. Most are well intentioned

And one learns to ignore it after a while, like pesky telemarketers.

I work with a lot of Indians, Chinese, and other Asians, and it's embarrassing how much pressure they get to abandon their beliefs and join a Christian church.

[hrmjustin]

75. I never tell people what they should believe. It is just so rude.

If people want to become Christian to can figure out how to do it on their own.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

76. That's definitely something we can agree on

And I think better of you for saying it.

BTW, I can imagine how pissed off most of the Christians would be (at least where I live) if there were Muslim missionaries every where telling them how wrong they are and trying to get them to come down to the Mosque and join Islam.

[hrmjustin]

78. They would not tkae kindly to it.

We Episcopalians tend to invite someone to church once a decade.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

79. I attended an Episcopalian church after deciding I was an atheist

They were pretty cool about it, and the service went like this: donuts and coffee->45 minute service/sermon->football and beers (or picnics on non-football season Sundays).

[hrmjustin]

80. Hour and a half service for me and beers after at brunch.

[cbayer]

82. Interestingly, I hear the first on DU frequently but not the second.

I agree that the converse is true IRL.

What do you make of that?

[clarice]

27. I hide under a bridge.....

and when they cross over. I make scary goat noises and scare the shit out of 'em.

[upaloopa]

28. I say that we should co-exist and it shouldn't

matter to you what I believe or don't

[KansDem]

34. As a "non-believer," I remind them that "religion" and "myth" have similar definitions

Religion
The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.

Myth
A traditional or legendary story, esp. one that involves gods and heroes and explains a cultural practice or natural phenomenon.


Usually, I don't' refer to "Christianity,","Judaism," or "Muslim," but rather, the "Christian myth," "Jewish myth," or "Muslim myth."

[LuvNewcastle]

35. I don't tell all religious people that they

believe in fairy tales, but people who believe the Bible is literally true, word for word, irk me. Some stories in the Bible are allegories and some are mythology and folklore. Biblical literalists are trashing the book they claim to revere when they say that all those stories are factual history, and I see nothing wrong with telling them so.

I hate it when people tell me that I can't believe in God if I don't believe in Heaven or Hell or believe in the Bible. It bothers me when people act like they have a monopoly on God and they decide who gets into his club. So I guess it's fair to say that most religious people annoy me.

[ZombieHorde]

41. The most commonly believed fairy tales I run into in my day to day life

are the existence of human rights, war, governments, laws, organizations, etc. I think some people forget that these words are for the sake of convenience, and don't reflect anything real outside of our imagination and language. I try to be careful when I run into these fairly tales because I don't want to insult the person by assuming they don't know the difference between rhetorical constructs and non-rhetorical constructs, but sometimes the person I am talking to takes the rhetoric for more than what it is. The other day I felt compelled to explain to someone that war was imaginary because they were justifying some behavior I did not like under the "war is hell" clause.

Non-believers how do you deal with people who say you are missing something and will not get to heaven?

I have only seen this once, and it was on DU, and the poster was trying to make a broader point, if I remember correctly. Since I don't really run into this, it's not something I generally think about.

[okasha]

42. Oddly enough, no one has ever said this to me in real life.

But then, the real-life atheists I know are much too well-mannered and intellectually secure to say such a thing.

[Humanist_Activist]

43. Generally the people who believe in evil fairy tales tell me I can't go to their heaven, for...

which I'm forever grateful, the last thing I would want to be in the presence of are the monsters they worship.

[rug]

44. #17, #12, #39

[Humanist_Activist]

45. What the fuck do those numbers mean? n/t

[dimbear]

46. Aarne Thompson numbers, used to classify fairy tales. Usually just written

AT numbers.

Always glad to help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aarne%E2%80%93Thompson_classification_system

[rug]

47. The glossary will be published shortly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=80909

[Kolesar]

51. I think I'm going to get stoned and listen to that Talking Heads' song: Heaven

That's not what I tell them.
That is how I am going to spend my Saturday evening.
Just to be clear

[Warpy]

53. Oh, I fuck with their heads, especially the ones who tell me I'm going to hell.

"Gee, I knew god was dead, but I didn't hear you got his job! Congratulations!!!"

Then I walk away while steam curls out of their ears and they try to reboot.

[goldent]

54. The fairy tales thing has become a cliche in DU - it makes me feel like I do when a web page takes

longer than I'd like to load -- you don't enjoy it, it just happens sometimes.

I've never heard it in real like, and can't really imagine a scenario where someone would say it too me.

[cbayer]

56. I have also never run into anyone IRL who says such things....

[LostOne4Ever]

62. In all fairness

That might be because many atheists are closeted or don't bring up religion in polite company. We do have a bit of a stigma.

On the internet however, we can amass and seem like a larger group than we are, even encouraging one and another to say things we would never say in public. That and we don't face the same chance of real life issues following us home.

The combination of community, anonymity, and lack of consequences can cause some to be more honest and less polite. This applies to just about every group really.

[cbayer]

84. You are speaking of anti-theists, imo.

While I know they exist IRL, I am fortunate to know few and choose to avoid them when I meet them, as I do most people who are bigoted.

OTOH, I know many, many atheists. In fact, I would say that the majority of people closest to me, including family, would describe themselves as atheist.

I realize that atheists confront real prejudice in some places and agree with you that this present s real problems for real individuals. But there are also places where believers face real prejudice. This site, and this group in particular, may be one of them.

[EvilAL]

61. I really don't care if people think I'm missing something

or not going to heaven, or say they'll pray for me. If they want to waste their time that's up to them. I don't tell my religious friends they believe in fairy tales, but they know I don't believe in their stuff and we have a general respect for each other in those regards. I have posted things on facebook when I was on it that pissed some of my religious friends off and small arguments have resulted, but no big deal.

[notadmblnd]

77. I just laugh

Because if there were a Heaven, I wouldn't want to be with those kind of people anyway.