Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?

[Greatest I am]

Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?

People who believe in the barbaric human blood sacrifice of the Triune Jesus/God must believe that the greatest force ever to exist decided that humans, lowly creations whom we are told are infinitely inferior to God, are somehow more important than God’s own life and that he would give it up for believers.

That is like a slave master dying in place of his slave. A rather silly notion to me.

Jesus preached that we should develop a humble character with little self-pride.

How is placing your own life above Triune Jesus/God’s showing a humble character as you think that he would die for you? That is taking self-pride to the maximum.

I think that those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

Yet Christians who think they are moral will believe that God would do such a despicable thing as having his son killed even as scriptures say that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and does not believe in asking or accepting a ransom.

Is thinking that to believe that God would die for you the epitome of an inflated ego?

If not, what could possibly inflate an ego more than that?

Regards
DL

[hrmjustin]

1. No I do not believe it is egotistical.

[narnian60]

2. Neither do I.

[hrmjustin]

3. This thread should get interesting!

[narnian60]

6. Yes, I know,

and I am not masochistic enough to read any further.

[gcomeau]

4. It's egotistical to think a God would even *notice* you.

Created the entire infinitely vast expanse of all of time and space... spends all its time obsessively concerned with what a single species of ape living on the surface of one itty bitty spec of rock off in one corner of one insignificant little galaxy in it that have only even been there for a miniscule fraction of a fraction of a percent of the time that universe has existed are doing with their time, and whether they're spending enough of it obsessing over him in return.

Yeah... no ego involved there...

[Warren Stupidity]

21. It is almost as if this god did not comprehend the vastness of the universe

or the insignificance of our teeny little bit of it, or perhaps that this is simply an Iron Age myth of no particular relevance to the modern world, other than its inertial social mass.

[rrneck]

5. Religion has served any number of useful purposes for social organizaiton

One is the idea that one would sacrifice for the group and perhaps even die for them. Dying for the sins of others assumes that those for whom you might die do not have to be perfect to merit such sacrifice.

[edhopper]

11. Perhaps

but it has also done a great deal of harm and served as a very repressive agent.

[rrneck]

15. Yep. Tools is tools. nt

[patrice]

7. How can a God die? And even if s/he did, what would that mean? What would be the big

deal in dying, anyway, to a God?

[Buzz Clik]

8. ..

[Moonwalk]

9. Dude, I'm an Atheist, and even I see holes in your argument; first, god/humans as master/slaves....

...the religions that are into Jesus have the relationship as parent/child. When you look at it that way, it makes perfect sense for a parent to die for their child. Master/slave makes no sense because there's no love there. But parent/child does. And the Bible--which is the "rule book" in this story has god not only creating humans as he would a child, but doting on them as a parent might.

Second, god doesn't die. He's god right? What he does do is create a human form that suffers and dies in order to present an example to humanity (more or less). If the "son of god" could, as you say, humble himself to the point where he'd willingly experience a painful death for those so far beneath him, then, story-wise, his dying presumably teaches believers that they should be equally humble and self-sacrificing.

That's the presumed narrative. Now that doesn't mean that the religions based on this story aren't being egotistical. Most of them say that one has to believe in their version of the story--and what rituals to engage in--in order to get this forgiveness of sins that J.C.'s sacrifice allowed. That's pretty egotistical to think J.C. went through all of that and meant it only for one particular group who believe a certain way. And belief in an omniscient, omnipresent power over the entire universe which cares about us and puts us and all the piddling things we do at the center of the universe is pretty egotistic--but that's the *premise* of most religions. A particular narrative (thesis) from said premise just carries that along and may not, in and of itself, be egotistical.

But outside of that premise, I'm not sure belief in the story itself is egotistical; many stories point out that true sacrifice brings rewards; so anything/anyone less important wouldn't be a true sacrifice and so wouldn't merit such an important reward. How is it egotistical to believe this?

[el_bryanto]

17. You said it better than I would have - and I am a believer

I would say the egotistical part may come in the notion that we, as individuals, can have a personal relationship with God - that he would listen to answer our individual prayers. This notion also causes causes a lot of people to personalize Jesus Christ's sacrifice. I think it's important to note that while I believe God does love me as an individual (some days, anyway), he also loves everybody I meet, including that asshole who just cut me off or that cop who pulled me over and made me wait while she didn't give me a ticket.

Bryant

[Greatest I am]

23. Two things.

Moonwalk

Two things. You spoke of the love between God and men but not of God and his son. It is my view that if God loved his son, he would have stepped up to fill the requirements of a sacrifice that he himself came up with even before man was created or could sin. That is quite insane for a God or a man to do.

True sacrifice may indeed bring reward but a sacrifice has a loss involved. For God/Jesus to sacrifice himself to God/Jesus means no loss or gain and is not in any way a sacrifice.

Regards
DL

[Moonwalk]

27. Dude, I didn't say any of it made sense, I just said that the interpretation...

...of god and man as master/slave didn't fit the narrative. The narrative of the relationship between god and man puts god as father and man as child. I also pointed out that sacrificing an only son (or oneself if the religion views god and jesus as one in the same) would have been viewed by those reading the narrative as the ultimate sacrifice. We worship those who sacrifice a lot. We hold them as heroes. And so Jesus (or god) is "heroic" in this tale because of his sacrifice. To see it otherwise is to misinterpret the intent of the narrative.

Now, if you like, you can say that you don't feel the narrative succeeds in getting that across. But that is the intent of the narrative. And you must remember the narrative says nothing about god coming up with all this before man was created. So your assumption on the insanity of it all relies on how certain religions interpret and expound upon the narrative (Old and New Testament), not on the narrative itself.

Ironically enough, god in both testaments isn't omnipotent or omniscient. Or even, in the old testament, the only god. Which means that a lot of what happens in the bible makes more sense than you think. But once religions insist that the god in these stories is omnipotent, omniscient, and the only god there is...that's when the stories start to sound coo-coo.

And presuming jesus as son and god as father, why do you presume there's no love the father has for the son simply because he sacrifices him? Fathers let the sons they love go to war, sacrificing them even though they love them. And, once again, no one really dies, so god didn't really sacrifice his son at all, did he? I mean really, dude, if you're going to take Christianity to task for it's beliefs, when why not just ask what sacrifice there was if, in death, jesus became a god and went to heaven? For that matter, why does god make any of us spend time on earth? Why doesn't god just have our souls where they belong (heaven or hell) and skip this very short bit of drama on earth?

Once you ask that question, all others become moot.

[rug]

10. What would you do for your child?

Is the child egotistical to expect his or her parents to care?

[hrmjustin]

12. +1

[goldent]

22. +1

[Greatest I am]

24. Care for one while murdering the other.

Would you accept your parent killing his innocent child while letting the guilty one walk?

Regards
DL

[rug]

26. Unfortunately, your snark is masked by syntax.

[edhopper]

13. God said the Abraham "Kill me a son."

Abe says "Man, you must be putting me on."

[Bad Thoughts]

14. There are some things that the slave religion did better ...

... than contemporary philosophies and religion: value the common man. I find the notion of a deity dying in a human manner to atone to undo the suffering of common people whose suffering is defined by that deity to be convoluted. However, the thoughts systems of the time--even those retroactively recognized as democratic or rational--failed to put the common man in central focus or address commoners psychic needs. Too bad Christianity merged with the institutions of the Roman Empire.

[smallcat88]

16. Kind of think the point

was to demonstrate that god loves us so much he committed the greatest self-sacrifice. However, since I have serious doubts about the validity of the bible stories (they were all written by men) ultimately, I suspect it was just another ploy to give the church more power over the people. And clearly, it worked. People love to believe in a god who would sacrifice his own for their sake. It's an appeal to the human ego that has given the church power over the people for millennia. Greatest marketing ploy ever!

[cbayer]

18. Just when you think you have heard it all...

[okasha]

19. Just when you think

you've mucked out the bull pen pretty well. . ..

Is calling yourself "Greatest I Am" egotistical?

[cbayer]

20. Hilarious! He could have called himself "Greater than God", I guess.

[Greatest I am]

25. No.

Hell no.
It is truth of the highest caliber.

Regards
DL