Church of the non-believer

[rug]

Sunday, Aug 4, 2013, 8:25 IST | Agency: DNA
Yolande D'Mello

Atheist communities are coming together to provide support to the tiny, but growing, band of non-believers in India.

-snip -

But while atheists have escaped the strict commandments of religious ideology, atheist communities are not without strong beliefs of their own. In fact, different groups are often not in agreement with each other.

For example, Nirmukta’s Geetha believes that “Atheism is a common-sense conclusion which most of us have arrived at individually — that is not the end. The philosophy to live by is free thought.” But she is quick to add, “That doesn't mean anything goes. Swearing and gender slurs will get you banned. We welcome the LGBT community and are pro-reservation and affirmative action.”

But Atheist Centre’s Vijayam disagrees. Since science and popular belief binds the centre’s beliefs, he believes that homosexuality can be perceived as “unhealthy”.

http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/1869649/report-church-of-the-non-believer

http://www.indiansceptic.in/fira.htm

http://www.atheistcentre.in/Albums/A1.html

[skepticscott]

1. Yet another ridiculous attempt

to portray atheism as a religion. Lame. Assinine. Yes, individual atheists have all sorts of beliefs and opinions, just like birdwatchers and stamp collectors, and are not all of them attractive. But they are not part of atheism.

[djean111]

2. Yes. It is like some religious people are incapable of comprehending the concept of non-belief,

so the try and force atheism into a box just like theirs.

[cbayer]

6. What religious people would that be?

These organizations are being put together by atheists.

[djean111]

8. I beg your pardon, truly!

I wouldn't join an atheist group unless it was solely for the purpose of rooting religion out of government.

[cbayer]

9. That would be a good cause, but that's not the question I asked.

[djean111]

10. i have read enough posts in the religion thread to feel that some truly need

to believe that atheism is a form of religion. Very tortuous logic.
I never save or point out individual DU posters or posts, so no "examples".

[cbayer]

11. While I've seen numerous articles posted about the various ways

in which organized atheism is taking on some of the same kinds of characteristics as organized religion, I don't think I have seen anyone say that atheism is just another form of religion.


There are, in fact, atheist groups that are holding weekly services and calling themselves churches.

And then there is the whole issue of atheists being excluded from things like military chaplaincy because they don't meet the criteria of a religious organization. The question then becomes whether the language should be changed to be more inclusive or whether atheist/secular organizations should take the stand that they are religious organizations.

It's a complicated and interesting issue right now, and while I understand the resistance to being compared with religious groups, we may need a new nomenclature that is both different and inclusive.

[djean111]

12. Fair enough.

I guess that, for me, in a way, it seems just as silly to consider being an atheist as being important enough to join a club or whatever, as it would to join a club of people who don't believe in Santa Claus or whatever. So I read the atheist-concerned posts in the religion thread with a raised eyebrow, when I guess I should just ignore it all.
Just that religion permeates the government and a lot of organizations, and then there is the tax thing - pisses me off that Scientology is called a religion and can squat in Clearwater using city services but paying no taxes. Mockery, really.

[cbayer]

13. I'm interested in how we might change the language so

that atheist organizations can have equal footing with religious organizations when it comes to things like chaplains, clubs in schools and other protections that religions may enjoy.

The tax situation remains problematic, but any organization, including atheist ones, can file for 501(3)c status just like churches. The "parsonage" exemption is unique to churches, but other tax advantages are available to all non-profits.

The Scientology issue also remains problematic. Basically, they bullied the IRS with their house full of highly paid attorneys and the IRS just gave in, as I understand it.

Much of the abuse of the 501(3)c tax exemptions that some religious groups exploit is the fault of the IRS, imo. Their oversight and regulation has been lax, to say the least.

[longship]

3. Yup! It's like atheists have something missing in their lives.

My answer is simple: we lack the belief that mythology is true. Maybe that's what we lack. Yup! I think so.

The important thing about this is that a universe without myths as fact is a far more enriching one. We unbelievers love mythology as fiction, as storytelling, as metaphors for any variety of human characteristics, and above all for context within history, including culture -- who doesn't like Bach's Matthew Passion?

But when somebody claims that these myths really are true. Sorry! Ring the Gong Show gong.

In previous times a government would be able to get away with killing people for these beliefs -- as Hitchens has said, it might take them some time to kill you, but they'd get the job done. The power that religion has now comes from the power they had then.

As Dennett has said, this is the spell we have to break.

on edit: My rationale in my response should make it clear why I am very uncomfortable with anything called a church for atheists, or wrapping atheism in any kind of religious veneer. We really have to change the discussion away from religious framing. That's the problem which Dennett, Dawkins, Hitchens, and Stenger have been writing and speaking about.

[skepticscott]

4. It will change, but only slowly

There are still too many people who cannot even grasp the notion that a person or a society could exist without religion. It's rather like the ancient classical world, where slavery was so institutionalized that no one could imagine not having it. People who wound up being slaves didn't like it, but even they would have found the idea of a society operating without slavery incomprehensible...that was just the way of the world.

[cbayer]

7. It's much more complex than just a simple disbelief,

particularly in some parts of the world.

If groups of marginalized or persecuted atheists want to get together to form organizations, why would that be a problem?

If they share similar interests, goals and, yes, beliefs, why would it be a problem for them to identify that and form a group around it?

While a universe without "myths" is far more enriching for you, who are you to say that it is or should be for everyone?

And why is it that so many non-believers speak in the first person plural so often. First you say that the only thing you all have in common is a lack of belief, then you go on to say that "We unbelievers love mythology as fiction, as storytelling, as metaphors for any variety of human characteristics, and above all for context within history, including culture". First off, this is much more complex than just not believing. Secondly, how do you have the authority to speak as "we?

I agree with you about the difficulties of using a religious framing to describe what is happening within organized atheism, but have yet to see any new vocabulary being developed. Any suggestions?

[cbayer]

5. In areas where being an atheist is a serious problem with serious

ramifications, I can see how building communities or organizations would become invaluable.

And since atheists, just like theists, come in as many flavors as there are non-believers, it is not surprising that some of these group are going to adopt different objectives.

For those that are not interested in joining groups with other atheists, no problem. But for those that are, I am glad they are available.

But it's not surprising that some of them look like religious organizations.

[rug]

14. I suppose organizations take on aspects of the culture in which they're found.

"The Atheist Centre’s website helps newly-turned atheists with a set of guidelines about choosing secular names and conducting weddings, funerals without religious rituals. The Facebook page — Indian Atheist has 20,313 likes already."

https://www.facebook.com/IndianAtheists

[cbayer]

15. Makes sense. And depending on where you are,

your need for certain kinds of information is going to differ quite a bit.

My daughter, an atheist, married a muslim. She has had many questions and areas in which she would benefit from understanding what that means, particularly to his family.

Not sure if she accessed any organized groups, but she's navigating it extremely well.