A Liberal Catholic and Staying Put

[cbayer]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304708604577502990564639630.html

August 29, 2013, 7:03 p.m. ET

Why I won't heed calls from the left and right to leave the church.

By PAUL MOSES

The new tone that Pope Francis has set in Rome seems to have quieted, at least for the moment, the movement aimed at persuading liberal Catholics to leave their church.

Last year, the Freedom From Religion Foundation took out a full-page ad in the New York Times NYT -2.52% and other newspapers aimed at persuading Catholics like me to "quit the Catholic Church." Bill Keller, former editor of the Times, wrote a column in the paper urging discontented, liberal-minded Catholics: "Summon your fortitude, and just go."

He made the suggestion in commenting on the publication of "Why Catholicism Matters" by Bill Donohue, the president of the Catholic League, who wrote that he believes that "maybe a smaller church would be a better church." So it's not just liberal critics who would like to escort people like me to the exit. Some conservative Catholic leaders and pundits would too.

To me, these invitations reflect a shallow view of the Catholic Church that reduces its complex journey to the points where it intersects with the liberal social agenda. Pope Francis' pastoral approach has shown a more merciful, less judgmental face of the church—one that always existed but needed to be more prominent in the public arena.

more at link

[trotsky]

1. "a more merciful, less judgmental face of the church"

Can't read your article - seems to require a login. But I'll ask again, what exactly has changed?

The current pope has reaffirmed the church's official stance toward homosexuals and women - and has given no indication whatsoever about changing any of the policies that make the world worse off. (Trying to focus on poverty without bothering to study the how the church's strict anti-contraception policy perpetuates it, for instance.)

Most liberal Catholics I have seen voicing this kind of "defiance" (how the hell it's supposed to be seen as defiance to maintain the status quo, I don't understand) seem to be under the delusion that the RCC is really, at its core, a liberal progressive institution and there's just been a group of bad men running it. For the last 2000 years.

[dimbear]

2. It's really all a question of what you want out of a church. If you expect to be called before

Saint Peter eventually, mightn't he ask just what all your church was involved in. Ready with your answer? (No blushing.)

[LostOne4Ever]

3. If one believes in the Church they should stay

Last edited Sat Aug 31, 2013, 11:52 AM - Edit history (1)

If not they should leave.

The author still believes and I wish him luck in keeping liberalism alive in the church.

The only thing that still resonates with me from Catholicism is the belief that everyone should have the chance to redeem themselves, and Im sure that my interpretation of that is far more worldly than theirs.

[cbayer]

4. Seems like a good guy and I'm glad he and others stay in.

While they can't truly provide equal counter balance to the Vatican, progressive, liberal and even radical members of the catholic church keep it from going completely off the rails.

Isn't confession all about redemption? Not a catholic, but that's always how I saw it.

BTW, your spell checker and auto-correct are making you have Freudian slips!

[rug]

5. No, it's about reconciliation.

[cbayer]

6. What's the difference?

[rug]

7. People can not redeem themselves but they can reconcile with each other.

The former, I think, is the heart of religious belief whereas the latter is the basis for ethical practice.

The focus of the sacrament is on reconciliation with one another and with God.

[cbayer]

8. Where do you think the Jewish concept of atonement fits in here?

[rug]

9. That's probably where the sacrament came from. It used to be referred to as the sacrament of Penance

Since Vatican II, the reconciliation aspect has become more prominent.

Christianity, or Catholicism specifically, is very much rooted in Judaism. Every time I come across a Jewish antecedent for a practice that is considered uniquely Catholic, I am startled by the similarity.

[cbayer]

11. I've noticed that as well, but it shouldn't be surprising should it?

And it's only recently in my life that I have become much more aware of the similarities between some aspects of Judaism and Islam.

[rug]

12. It shouldn't but it is.

I consider it more evidence of the social and political coopting of religion. If the connections were known, the pogroms could not have occurred, at least not in the name of religion.

There's a guy in town whose family is from Yemen. His second son was born last month. They named him Gabriel. His older son is Ali.

[LostOne4Ever]

10. DOH!!!

Thank you for pointing that out

[center] [/center]

[div style='color: red;font-size: 1.500em'] [center] Now that's embarrassing! [/center]

[LostOne4Ever]

13. My interpretation of it

Back when I was a believer is that no matter what sin you committed you could always do some sort of act or penance to make up for it in the eyes of god. I was taught that we were to go and confess our sins to the father and we would be told what to do as penance.

I liked the idea that no matter how badly we messed up, there was a way to make amends. That just resonated with me. Confession not so much. I thought that should be between me and god only.

If Rug is correct (and he probably is) then my understanding of it was very flawed.

Now the way I look at it is that no matter how much someone messes up, they deserve a chance to find some way to make it up to society.

[cbayer]

14. The intermediary aspect to confession is an interesting one.

In the area of self-reflection and exploration, some people have the capacity to hear themselves and ask themselves hard questions, while others do not. Not that much difference from some kinds of psychotherapy.

I'm not sure that I agree that everyone should have this chance. I believe that some people are truly sociopathic and lacking in the ability to experience empathy or remorse. Some of these people might be very good at seeking out and convincing others that they have reformed, but they remain dangerous.

Empathy and remorse may be characteristics that one can not acquire.

[rug]

15. Here it is from the horse's mouth.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm