Looks like God failed to heal another child and the parents have to pay the price.

[moobu2]

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#e2e4e4; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #ff6760;"]Mom linked to 1996 faith-over-medicine case.[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#a1adae; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #ff6760;"]



ALBANY, Ore. (KOIN) — The parents of a 12-year-old girl (below) who died from complications of diabetes pleaded not guilty Friday to manslaughter charges.



It’s not the first time this family is connected to a faith-over-medicine death.

Travis Rossiter, 39, and Wenona Rossiter, 37, allegedly withheld medical attention for their daughter, Syble. The girl died Feb. 5 at their home in the 500 block of SE Queen Avenue.

The Rossiters, arrested Thursday, had five supporters in their first courtroom appearance. They will have separate court-appointed attorneys.

Albany Police Capt. Eric Carter said the family belongs to the Church of the First Born near Brownsville.

A church website cites a verse from James in the Bible: “If any be sick, call for the elders of the church. Let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord.”

“I don’t know to what degree this couple believed in that or practiced that,” Carter said.

The Linn County District Attorney’s Office said there is a family connection between the Rossiters and the first couple in Oregon to be charged after they treated their son with prayers instead of medicine.

Click here for more of the story.

[gopiscrap]

1. this is so tragic on so many levels

[atreides1]

2. With people like this...

...it isn't God's fault, they blame themselves for not have more faith and that's why God failed to act!

[cbayer]

3. Wow! 82 children associated with this church have died since 1976.

Why hasn't social services stepped in? This sounds more like a cult than a church.

[2ndAmForComputers]

23. The answer to your question is:

Because it's religion, and thus treated with more deference and tiptoeing than it deserves.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. What, in your opinion, is the differentiator?

I know it may vary from person to person, but most people don't make the comparison, so I'm just curious your opinion at least in this case?

[cbayer]

34. First, they are pursing some fringe beliefs that most religious groups

would not embrace. There are some major denominations that eschew medical care, but this group is extreme, particularly when it comes to children.

IMO, cults tend to prey on the most vulnerable and keep their activities hidden. I can't find anything about this particular church on the internet.

They may or may not be, but this number of child deaths is alarming and points to something possibly more sinister.

[struggle4progress]

45. Another article gives an earlier date and a lower number with the same source:

Article linked in OP says:

... Since 1976, at least 82 children linked to the Church of the First Born have died from a lack of medical treatment, according to the group Child Healthcare is a Legal Duty ...
Mom linked to 1996 faith-over-medicine case
By Sally Showman
Updated: Friday, August 30, 2013, 6:23 pm
Published: Friday, August 30, 2013, 3:38 pm
http://www.koin.com/2013/08/30/parents-get-separate-court-appointed-lawyers/

Elsewhere I found:

... At least 22 children associated with the Church of the First Born have died from lack of medical treatment since 1964, according to the group Children's Healthcare Is a Legal Duty ...
Oregon Faith-Healing Parents Charged With Manslaughter In Daughter's Death From Diabetes
By Cindy del Rosario | Aug 31, 2013 05:32 PM EDT

[cbayer]

46. Hmmm.... I have found it really difficult to find much accurate info on this.

[struggle4progress]

47. The Church of the First Born seems to have a long history of this

Oregon Faith Healer Parents Get Probation in Son's Death
Sept. 19, 2012
By ALYSSA NEWCOMB via Good Morning America
... Russel and Brandi Bellew were sentenced to five years of probation on Tuesday after they pleaded guilty to negligent homicide in the death of Brandi's biological son, Austin Sprout, 16. An autopsy found Austin died of an infection caused by a burst appendix. The couple, along with their six surviving children, belongs to the General Assembly and Church of the First Born, which eschews modern medicine ...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/oregon-faith-healer-parents-probation-sons-death/story?id=17273845

Washington faith-healing parents acquitted of murder charge
Published: Tuesday, May 15, 2012, 4:15 AM
Updated: Tuesday, May 15, 2012, 4:18 AM
OKANOGAN, Wash. — A faith-healing Washington couple accused of being criminally responsible for their teenage son's death for failing to call a doctor have been acquitted of second-degree murder charges. ... the Okanogan County Superior Court jury also acquitted JaLea Swezey of first-degree manslaughter on Monday night but couldn't reach a verdict for Greg Swezey on that count. After nine hours of deliberation, the jury could not reach a decision about either parent on a second-degree manslaughter count. Zachery Swezey was 17 when he died at his Carlton home of a ruptured appendix in March 2009. Jurors were told the couple belong to the Church of the First Born ...
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/05/washington_faith-healing_paren.html

Broken Arrow Mother Faces Neglect Charges In Son's Death
Posted: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 6:07 PM EST
Updated: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:53 PM EST
Ashli Sims, The News On 6
TULSA, Oklahoma -- ... Tulsa County prosecutors have charged Susan Grady with felony child neglect for the death of her 9-year-old son. Nine-year-old Aaron Grady died in Broken Arrow 18 months ago. The medical examiner found that he died from complications of diabetes ... According to police records Grady says she knew the boy was very sick, but she didn't consider taking him to the doctor, because she was "trying to live by faith" and she "felt like God would heal him." The police affidavit says Grady told police she was a member of the Church of the First Born ...
http://www.newson6.com/Global/story.asp?S=13756611

Indiana Couple Sentenced in Death of Newborn
updated 8/13/2005 2:18:26 AM ET
FRANKLIN, Ind. — An Indiana couple who chose to pray over their dying newborn daughter rather than seek medical care for her were sentenced Friday to six years in prison for reckless homicide. But a judge suspended most of those prison terms for Dewayne and Maleta Schmidt, instead ordering the couple to serve about a year each at a work-release center. Their daughter, Rhianna Rose Schmidt, died in August 2003, less than two days after she was born at the couple’s home, from an infection typically treated with antibiotics. The Schmidts’ church, the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn, advocates prayer and faith healing over medical intervention but does not require members to shun medical care ...
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/8933152/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/indiana-couple-sentenced-death-newborn/

Girl's death leads to questions of belief
Tulare parents, church have seen similar cases.
Fresno Bee/October 3, 2003
By Tim Sheehan
... the Tulare County District Attorney's Office filed charges of involuntary manslaughter and child abuse last week against Wesley and LaRonda Hamm. The Hamms are members of the General Assembly and Church of the First Born ... Ten years ago, in August 1993, the death of another young member of the same church led to felony child-abuse charges against her parents ... On March 13, Jessica Hamm died ... An autopsy by the Tulare County Coroner's Office reported the causes of death as cardiorespiratory failure, due to inflammation of her lungs and trachea, and sepsis ...
http://www.culteducation.com/reference/firstborn/firstborn24.html

[cbayer]

48. Thanks for that.

When I was trying to research it, I got a lot of unclear and contradictory information on the First Borns.

For example, some sites said they were a sect that broke away from the LDS and others adamantly denied it.

They seem to be widely scattered. Did you see anything that might be a central organization or any kind of creed?

[struggle4progress]

49. The name "general assembly and church of the firstborn" seems to be lifted

word-for-word from KJV of Hebrews 12:23

The "histories" I've found are entirely uninformative, claiming (say) that The Church of the Firstborn was founded in 26 AD

[Tikki]

4. I don't get it..Is there more to that bible verse..because it doesn't say anything about NOT calling

a doctor.

Just says let the church elders pray...they can pray over the child in a hospital bed, no?


Tikki

[jeepnstein]

33. I'm and Elder...

We go to hospitals and homes all the time to pray. While I'm there I'll also make myself available to run errands, help in any way I can, and just be there to listen. Our role is to be there to support the family in their time of need. Can our prayers be answered? Sure, and I've seen it happen. I've also seen prayer not turn out the way we want it. In that case you just have to pray for the strength to get through the days, months, and years ahead.

[Tikki]

36. That makes so much sense...but if you saw a child at home failing wouldn't you...

intervene and insist that the child be given, at least the chance of, medical care?

Sure things don't always turn out as hoped but one can put the odds on their side with a consistent source
of help like medical care.



Tikki

[jeepnstein]

42. In our congregation...

There would be no question that we would urge the parents to seek medical care. We have members who have even gone so far as to pay the bill for families who couldn't. In a society with such remarkable health care as we have it's really inexcusable for someone to not take advantage of it. I understand that at some of the limits of the technology there can be moral and ethical issues but reaching those limits is rare.

[Tikki]

43. Excellent...

Tikki

[edhopper]

5. I guess this is one of those rare cases

where someones religious beliefs causes harm?

I wonder where on the spectrum of leaving people's beliefs alone and not saying they are wrong this one lies?

[cbayer]

6. This clearly lies on the side of saying that the practice of their beliefs are wrong.

When ones beliefs result in direct harm to others, that's a pretty bright line.

[edhopper]

7. But you won't say their belief is wrong,

only how they practice it?

Let's not question the basis for that practice? Is that right?

[cbayer]

8. You have a bad habit of speaking for me.

I think their belief that spiritual treatment is more effective than medicine is wrong. If they choose that route for themselves, that's one thing. When they choose it for others, that's another.

Let me ask you this. Do you think the beliefs driving this are wrong?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121892845

The problem here is the rigidity. We are intelligent adults who can assess things and make our own decisions about the rightness or wrongness.

It is your premise that a belief in god is wrong that I take issue with, not the obvious fact that some religious beliefs cause harm and are wrong for that reason.

[edhopper]

9. If it's the belief that all people deserve

dignity and helping others is important, than I do not think it is wrong.

If it is the belief that God wants them to do it, and it is mainly that, then I would say they are wrong.

Because people say God wants them to do things all the time.

Are you going to decide which ones God actually wants.
Or are you going to say, "that is the right thing", with or without God demanding it.

I can discuss things logically through a humanistic philosophical lens. But, "it's what God decries" pretty much ends any discourse.

Except for asking how they know what God wants and why they even think there is a God, but you don't think I should ask such questions, or at the very least, accept their answers without questioning them further.

And about this couple, it isn't just that belief that you so neatly partition, Their God commends they and their children live this way.

But you can't come to say that you think their belief in that God is wrong. So you think their might be a God that forbids the use of medicine?

[cbayer]

10. All people do deserve dignity, even those that believe in a god you don't believe in.

People make stupid medical decisions all the time. Some times it is driven by religion, others it is just driven by nonsense or their inability to adequately evaluate data. Anti-vaxxers come to mind.

I can challenge them and do. But it's not my mission to disabuse everyone who believes in a god of that belief.

As long as it does not cause harm, I don't care.

Why do you?

[edhopper]

11. Beacuse in my view

it mostly causes harm. And I don't see this world where people's religious beliefs are not a crucial part of their actions. One can only attack the actions, but without looking at the cause of that action, we can never stop it. But you seem to think you can just ignore why they are doing it. It doesn't matter to you what they believe, because belief somehow has a special exemption in your book. I think the belief itself is what's important, all actions stem from that.

And don't you find it ironic that you seem to care about what I care about, while you keep asking why I care?

[cbayer]

12. Causes harm all the time? Does it ever result in good?

You continue to tell me what I think and you continue to be wrong.

If one believes in social justice and civil rights and taking care of the most needy, and those beliefs stem from one's religious beliefs, that's a good thing.

Your mission to eliminate religion is a losing battle. So, I would suggest that you might recognize the good and work with it, challenge that which clearly causes harm and leave everyone else alone.

Anyway, this is again becoming circular. You are very unlikely to win any converts when you take the hard positions that you do, but you are certainly a persistent missionary.

[edhopper]

13. Read my new post

about humanism and religion.

I know I will never end religion. I won't end poverty, or war or hatred, doesn't mean I should not speak out against it.

I find the hard line on this forum is, "you can never convince anyone there is no God."

[cbayer]

14. You can never convince anyone that there is a god either.

People either believe or they don't, and many hold both positions at various points in their life.

There are no winning teams here. Humanism does not trump theism. I've met some really horrible people who call themselves humanist - mean, belittling, judgmental. And I've met some wonderful ones.

My position is that no one has the superior position. If they use their beliefs or lack of beliefs to do good, I'm all for them. If they use it to marginalize or do bad or as a badge of how they are superior, I find that objectionable.

Whether one is a believer or not matters not a bit to me, it's what you do with it.

[edhopper]

15. You really don't want to denounce any beliefs?

So people who believe dark people are subhuman and not in God's grace, as long as they don't act on it, you won't say they are wrong?

What about the belief that evolution is false and creationism true. I doubt that most the 45% of the public actually acts on that belief, but you don't think it's right to tell them they are simply wrong?


My problem here is you seem to have a very vague, unknowable concept of God. That there might be something there that we can never know. Well we can discuss that. But then you want to say that any and all beliefs can be equally valid and not up for analysis and dismissal when they simply don't stand up. Either that or you think that offending some one about their belief is worse than showing them their belief is false.

And millions if not billions of people have been convinced there is a God. Many others have become atheist when they were convinced there wasn't. So yes, you can.

[cbayer]

16. Of course I don't object to denouncing any beliefs.

Maybe I am not being clear. If someone says that they believe dark people are subhuman, I denounce their belief.

If someone says that evolution is false, I will denounce that as well.

In both cases, I have evidence that they are wrong plus I have evidence about how those specific beliefs are harmful.

What I reject is denouncing their belief in god. I have no evidence that they are wrong nor any reason (without further information) that their belief is harmful.

You can say, I think the fundamentalist religious POV contains many facets that are both wrong and harmful. What you can't say, at least not say in any convincing way, is that peoples' beliefs in god are wrong. And no one can say to you that your lack of belief is wrong.

You keep generalizing this and moving the goalposts (logical fallacy by the way). I object only to your one specific and rigid stance that people that believe in god are wrong.

[edhopper]

17. I get that

And what I infer is that you are speaking of the general concept of God, while not saying people can't be wrong about the specifics of their belief in God or the nature of that God. God does this or God wants that and so forth.

"We know that God does not want us to give medicine to our child" would be a specific example of a wrong belief.

[cbayer]

18. I think we have finally come to a critical point of agreement here.

That is exactly what I am trying to say.

[edhopper]

19. And it becomes tricky when talking about others beliefs

because for some "their specific God" is the only God. And to say their God doesn't exist is the same as saying no god of any kind exist.

I think some of those folks would have as much trouble with your stand on the matter as mine.

I think we also differ on a completely non theological matter. While we both feel that some peoples ideas about god are wrong, you feel that they should be left alone if they don't use that belief for harm. And I have no problem confronting that belief.

In this it is a difference of opinion on how to act and not one I am saying there is only one way of things.

[cbayer]

20. Excellent point about how this can be tricky.

I can be quite confrontational myself, which I am sure does not surprise you. I am particularly confrontational when it comes to anti-theism.

So, really, were are probably not that different.

[edhopper]

21. Yes

you seriously want to be right about people not saying definitively that there is no God.

[cbayer]

22. Point taken.

[xfundy]

27. Thank you!

CBayer has criticized me before for objecting to "religious" adherents foisting their hatred upon others. Specifically, the christers and other god-botherers.

Meanwhile, "Rug" carries on with his constant posts of religious content, which often gives a nice big figurative "FU" to people who want to live outside that particular prison of the mind.

[okasha]

28. You are posting in the Religion group

where one might reasonably expect to find posts about religion. If the very idea sends you into a swivet, there is a protected group available for atheists and agnostics.

[rug]

29. "Meanwhile, 'Rug' carries on with his constant posts of religious content"?

Er, is this the Religion group?

If I had known you were so sensitive, I'd have put up some posts about the Crusades. Would that make you feel better?

Here, I'll make it up to you. Tell me which show you want to see and I'll send you a ticket.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121892819

[edhopper]

31. My jab at Cbayer was said with a wink

and after a long back and forth.

And I disagree with rug about most things here, but he can post whatever he want about religion.

Calling out others is just bad form and probably against the SOP.

Make your arguments as vigorous as you want, but keep it civil and no personal attacks.

[cbayer]

37. I have criticized you for objecting to having hatred forced on others?

Where? When?

That's BS and you need to back it up if you are going to make that kind of accusation.

And your accusations towards rug is equally bogus.

The prison of the mind is of your own making and it looks like you choose to be a martyr to it.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. Double blind studies indicate no, it never does good.

[cbayer]

35. I think you forgot your sarcasm smiley.

[chillfactor]

26. God invested human beings skills not given to other species....

critical-thinking and reasoning skills and good old common sense..in this case..it is the parents who refused to exercise any of these attributes....

it is not God's fault this child died....it is the parent's fault...

this NOT an argument about belief or unbelief in God... it is based on the idiocy and the disregard of the parents

[edhopper]

32. Now that is tortured logic

It IS the very religious belief of the parents that was the cause of the child's death.

To divorce their belief is just intellectually dishonest.

The God they believed in demand they act like this. Without that God they don't allow their child to die.

[intaglio]

30. The person who paid the price was the child

The parents have a small chance of being punished for their abuse.

The real monster will keep on going preaching his woo and taking in the tithing from the deceived fools who follow him.

[cbayer]

38. Oh, I think chances are real good that they will be punished.

They've been arrested, charged and are in jail.

[intaglio]

39. The minister of the church is not arrested

and that toxic preacher is the real begetter of this and the other tragedies that have happened to the congregation.

[cbayer]

40. There is an amazing dearth of information available about this church or this minister.

I'm not sure what the preacher might be charged with. The parents are the ones responsible for not getting appropriate treatment for their child.

Apparently the courts have intervened with this church before, ordering that one child be taken out of the custody of his parents to undergo needed treatment.

It's truly a tragedy.

[struggle4progress]

44. Oregon changed the law about a year ago: there's no faith-healing exemption in such cases now

[Iggo]

41. Horay for deeply held religious beliefs!!!

[struggle4progress]

50. My own suspicion is that the number of such cases would drop if we had universal health care

I haven't been able to learn anything about the Rossiters' socio-economic status but it's my impression from a number of similar cases that inability to pay medical bills may encourage people to avoid standard treatment and hope for the best

[cbayer]

52. This is an excellent point.

I've seen a lot of people go for alternative treatments of all kinds because they could not afford traditional medical care in this country.

That is a very sad thing indeed.

[moobu2]

59. No, it might be an excelent point if it had any basis in reality

but there's nothing at all in the story about the parents seeking medical treatment for the child, but not being able to afford it. There's nothing in the story about the other 80 or so dead children parents trying to save them but couldn't afford it. How could it be an excellent point when there's nothing to support the claim? On the other hand, there's plenty to support the charge that the parents willfully withheld common medical care from their own child and let her die of a treatable illness because they willfully wallowed in religious superstitious ignorance.

[cbayer]

60. I wasn't commenting on this specific story but on the problem in general.

I have never questioned the facts of this particular case or the others associated with this particular sect.

[Iggo]

53. I share that suspicion.

[Act_of_Reparation]

54. Socio-Economic equality is not a cure-all for society's myriad woes...

Steve Jobs was a gazillionaire. Steve Jobs contracted a treatable form of cancer in its early stages. Instead of seeing an oncologist, Steve Jobs ate a magical mango. And Steve Jobs died.

Adam Yauch was a gazillionaire. Adam Yauch got cancer. Under advice from his Tibetan "doctors", Adam Yauch became a vegan. And then Adam Yauch died.

A large portion of the blame can be laid upon the educational poverty of our science classrooms--thanks, in no small part, to a small, yet vocal contingent of religious people--while the remainder may be evenly divided between the news media, which, according to their perverted interpretation of "objectivity" gives ample air time and publicity to driveling lackwits like Jenny McCarthy and shameless hucksters like Deepok Chopra, and profiteering religious leaders who offer people all manner of miracle cures for their assorted maladies.

Money isn't the issue--or at least it isn't the sole issue. Plenty of rich people believe stupid things, because they, just like poor people, are raised to believe in magic.

[struggle4progress]

55. Well, I won't argue with that, because most of what you say seems entirely obvious to me

[cbayer]

56. There will always be eccentrics like those you describe who do not trust western

medicine.

But that's not really the point. Those people had a choice - many do not.

I think the reasons for the educational poverty in our science classrooms is complex and multi-factorial. While there is no question that the religious right has played a role in some places, in other they had nothing to do with it.

In some places (like New Orleans) the religious schools are offering a much higher level of education in the sciences than the public schools are.

[Act_of_Reparation]

57. Distrust of western medicine is hardly a fringe element

It is a multibillion dollar industry, and many affluent, well-educated people buy into it.

Poor people don't go to chiropractors or get acupuncture. They don't do yoga or reikki. They don't buy kenesiotape, or holographic bracelets, or acai-fortified foo-foo berry-flavored reverse osmosis filtered water from the sacred springs of Xanadu for $9.00 a bottle.

Gullibility is not constrained by income, but by one's ability to think critically. Why our schools have abjectly failed to teach children this skill is most certainly an issue to debate, but that's probably best left to another thread.

[cbayer]

58. True, but most people with the means will seek out traditional treatment before

resorting to alternative medicines (unlike Steve Jobs, who came to regret his decision).

I know. I live in SoCal where people are spending gazillions on trying to find endless youth and immortality.

[CanonRay]

51. I think the rest of that Bible verse reads

...and then call a doctor." Or at least it should. It's fine to call the Elders to pray over somebody, if you want. Just get the hell out of the way when the ambulance gets there.