Quebec's symbol of shame

[rug]

Posted: 09/4/2013 1:00 AM
By: Rocky Kravetsky
Rocky Kravetsky is a Winnipeg lawyer.

The Government of Quebec has so far managed to persuade everyone that its proposed "charter of values" is all about religious symbols. That's a bit of clever political spin that masks the real effect of the proposed law, which is to discriminate against individuals and deprive Quebecers of the best-qualified civil servants. All on the basis of some murky notion of what is and is not a "religious symbol."

The people who label religiously mandated attire as "symbols" either don't understand, or don't want, their listeners to understand they are not talking about symbols at all. They are talking about basic rules of dress and appearance religious adherence mandate.

Maybe everyone in the Quebec government thinks every identifiable garment worn because of religion is worn as a "symbol." This might well apply to the Christian crucifix, which is not a required item of attire but a voluntary symbol of one's faith. It's a bit like a human bumper sticker. Just the exercise of a bit of freedom of expression, now to be illegal in Quebec.

But the other so-called symbols that have been mentioned in the same breath as the crucifix are not that at all. Observant Muslim women, Hutterite women, Orthodox Jewish men and women and Sikh men wear head coverings because they consider they have to, not because they want to. In each case, the choice of attire is not to advertise their religion but to comply with it. The effect of telling them they can't wear the required head covering at work is to tell them they can't have the job. It is discrimination on the basis of religious observance -- plain and simple.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/analysis/quebecs-symbol-of-shame-222299191.html

[cbayer]

1. I think it's shameful what they are doing there.

The author outlines the dilemmas this will create really well.

I certainly hope they rethink this.

[rug]

2. I'm waiting for the PQ to release the actual text of the Charter.

[cbayer]

3. What's the hold up?

I think they may be discovering that there are a lot of unintended consequences.

[rug]

4. They originally said it would be released in September.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's some editing going on.

[EvilAL]

5. I don't think it will pass

The Supreme Court of Canada. I also don't think that wearing a turban is a 'religious symbol'. A crucifix is a religious symbol, but Marois stated that the crucifix in the capital will stay because it reflects Quebec's heritage. Also the huge lit-up crucifix on top of Mont Royal will stay..
I think it is just her way of trying to pass something she know's will get struck down by the SCC in order to show her constituents that she is doing everything she can to preserve their heritage, be it either through insane language laws and rules or, now, religion. Sad fact is that a lot of Quebecers hate anything that's not their perfect, white, French, Christian selves.

[cbayer]

6. Thanks for the insights on this.

Even if passed, I can't imagine how it could stand with exemptions for christianity.

You know what they say - the only people more french than the french are the quebecois.

[EvilAL]

7. Well people won't be able to wear crosses either,

but it's easier to tuck a golden cross into your shirt than it is to hide your type of headwear.
I see it as an attack on non-christian believers. Doesn't bother atheists except that someone is getting their rights fucked with, that bugs me, bullying. Same thing with the french laws and all that "Quebec's heritage/values" crap. I enjoy Quebec's history, it was hard fought for, but stop trying to make it like it would have been 250 years ago if you had won. Religious reasons were some of the reasons they left or were kicked out of France way back then too, with the Huguenots and Acadians. What about the MicMac and Mohawk nations as well. Heritage and values you say? heh

[cbayer]

8. I bet nuns and priests will still be able to wear headdresses and crosses.

How are they going to justify that?

It should bug anyone. Anything that can be done to believers can be done to atheists.

I will say this for the quebecois. They are tenacious.

Also interesting is that when the acadians split from them and came to Louisiana, they took the diametrically opposite approach. They insisted on little and established their own communities. It hasn't worked out all that well for them, though, as their heritage is moving rapidly towards extinction.

I'm ambivalent about preserving culture. On the one hand, I see the value. On the other, it could be much ado about little.

[EvilAL]

9. Priests and nuns aren't public employees,

but doctors are. A top surgeon at McGill said he'd probably be forced to leave Quebec if he couldn't wear his turban at work, he also said a lot of others would probably be doing the same. Yay! Top doctors leaving Quebec!!

edit: Too bad about the Cajuns losing their heritage and language, but that's what Quebec thinks will happen unless they do this crazy shit..

[cbayer]

10. They could be public employees, particularly the nuns.

Some of them work for public service agencies that provide services for the poor in the community.

Too bad about the surgeon, but I'd get out of there if I were him. They might also lose a lot of their front line primary care physicians.

The dilemma is real and the cajuns are the proof. But, then again, there is going too far.

[EvilAL]

11. Well if they were working for the public

, the nuns, I don't think they would be allowed. We'll have to wait and see.

The thing about the Cajuns is they went there and started up when they were some of the first in eastern Canada from Europe to start to populate eastern Canada. The population remained as well, even after the war and they didn't have to hide anymore, plus some came back. I can't remember the amount that were forced to leave and how many made it all the way to Louisiana, but it would have been harder to keep it down there, they never lost it here, nobody was told they couldn't speak French. Quebec just takes it up a notch.

Edit: incidentally, I am half Acadian and the other half later French immigrants. My lineage is probably only French going back centuries. There are some folks who think it is wrong for me to have been raised in English, it's an affront to them.. Weird stuff..

[cbayer]

12. I can't imagine that they would require nuns to remove their crosses.

What about the wedding rings they wear? Clearly religiously symbolic.

One of the reasons the Cajuns are struggling as a culture is clearly language. While they developed their own dialect, they never pursued a written language. Their heritage has been passed down through stories and music.

There are still those that do not speak any english, but they are aging and many have died. There are still those in families and communities that act as translators, but I foresee a time when they won't be needed.

Have you ever been down there? It's really a fascinating area. I used to go for work and never tired of exploring the communities and the cultures. Louisiana has put some effort into preserving its french roots, and I am glad for that. But they are fighting an ebbing tide.

[EvilAL]

13. Marois has said that crosses aren't permitted either

But that remains to be seen. She could wear her cross under her shirt, as long as it's not displayed.
I don't think the full bill has become available yet, there is still much speculation, maybe I missed it too.. Have to check it out after..

I'd love to go check it out, I like the local history here and it fits right in. The last naval battle of the seven years war was fought about 2 miles away from where I am sitting right now, had the French prevailed that battle, New France would have won because they were waiting on those ships at Quebec City for supplies, as we're the English on the other side of the cliffs, stalemate, but the English ships made it and the fate of New France was sealed. I go out with my metal detector and find artifacts from the Acadian refugee village that was burned after the battle, and stuff from the battle as well. Going off topic a little.. Heh

[cbayer]

14. Apparently they are still reworking the bill, and

that is not surprising.

I have really enjoyed my time in Canada, though I found Quebec the least friendly place. I speak little french and of all the places I have visited, they showed the least tolerance of my attempts to communicate even when I tried to use it.

I have also spent time in the acadian area of Maine. The similarities and differences between that population and the Cajuns is fascinating. Interestingly, the dialects are similar and, at least in Louisiana, they are able to communicate.

[EvilAL]

15. It is the least friendly place for tourists,

A lot of people say that. It fucks them up because they usually suck at English. So doing their job becomes a major pain in the ass. A lot of Quebec is English friendly, but if you get into the smaller town and stuff it's different. There are English communities too, where most people speak English and English schools and stuff. Did you hop by New Brunswick on your travels?

[cbayer]

16. Exactly my experience. The further north I went, the less friendly it became.

I have never been to New Brunswick, but I bet I would love it. I took the ferry to Nova Scotia once (a long time ago) and have driven into Quebec and then all the way across west once.

It took me many weeks and was just after Katrina. I needed to get out of the US for my peace of mind, and Canada provided me with sanctuary.

Funny story. I wasn't paying that much attention to time. At one point, I drove into a town to find a motel and they had a big sign advertising their Thanksgiving dinner. I thought I had completely lost it!

[EvilAL]

17. Hah, like you spent

a month in Quebec one week.