Back to school, putting a face to another’s faith

[cbayer]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/wp/2013/09/09/back-to-school-putting-a-face-to-anothers-faith/

By Charles C. Haynes, Published: September 9 at 2:03 pm


(istockphoto)

No quick fix – diplomatic or military – will dissolve the centuries of distrust and rivalry that fuel the sectarian conflict in Syria, where Alawites and Shiites are pitted against Sunnis with Christians caught in the crossfire.

The same can be said of the many other religious and ethnic wars raging around the globe.

In the past week alone, Buddhists burned Muslim shops and homes in Burma, a Muslim mob stormed a Coptic church in Egypt, and radical Sunni Muslims attacked minority Shiite Muslims in central Pakistan.

Americans may be tempted to see religious violence as someone else’s problem, living as we do in country blessedly free of holy wars for much of our history (thanks, in large measure, to the religious liberty principles of the First Amendment).

more at link

[Manifestor_of_Light]

1. I'm sick of Christians dropping hints about how holy they are

Latest example:
Guy came down to my place to give me an estimate on some landscaping including plants and boulders, which will not be cheap.

Talked about his "mission work in Africa" and the insects he had to eat.
Said his wife didn't like Africa so she made them spend two weeks in Paris, in civilization. Women really like indoor plumbing and regular showers. I know, I'm a woman.

So he's busy wiping out their religion? Help them learn to dig wells, treat crippling parasitic diseases with a 50-cent pill, but don't destroy their religion & culture with European ideas like you're doing them a favor.

This ex-President does it right, who is non-sectarian: www.cartercenter.org

Happens to be a very well run charity.
"Waging Peace, Fighting Disease, Building Hope"

Landscaper dude also said he and his wife are raising a 2 year old grandchild, which I think implies "We would not teach our daughter proper sex education or about contraception, and we are anti-abortion, so we're raising a grandchild which could have been predicted due to our failure to face reality and educate our daughter so she would not become a teenage mother."

Would you like to guess if I'm going to hire this guy????

They think I'm going to Hell (matter of opinion) and worship Buddha (wrong).

[cbayer]

2. What in the world does any of that have to do with the article?

Anyway, what did he say that indicated he was trying to wipe out anyone's religion? Most people in AFrica are christian or muslim.

And the fact that he is raising his 2 year old grandchild leads you to conclude what? There are, of course, lots and lots of reasons that young women get pregnant or can't raise their children.

The only thing I can get from your post is that you condemned him because he did some mission work in Africa.

That just seems bizarre.

BTW, not all women are that attached to indoor plumbing and frequent showers, though Western women of means are probably more likely to be attached to those notions.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

3. ALL WOMEN menstruate for several decades of their lives.

Are you aware of menstruation? Do you know what it is?

It's extremely messy, inconvenient, smelly, uncontrollable periodic bleeding (including clots) from the vagina by females of reproductive age.

And it's quite painful. Did I mention painful and disabling??
As in "four days of being bedridden and unable to go to work"?

At least in MY experience. I've been through menopause so my disabling visitor has stopped.

Thirteen times a year (lunar months of 28 days) times three or four days per time. 52 days per year, times say, year age 12 to age 56 or so. That's forty-four years. Eleven hundred days. Three entire years of your adolescent and adult life.

I realize that only some women are disabled by menstruation, and that's good. But that was not my experience.


When a woman is menstruating, she does not want to go far from a bathroom. That's usually the reason why women like showers and indoor plumbing to get their butts clean, in addition to the usual hygiene issues that men also have to deal with. I'm trying not to get banned here while attempting to communicate just how serious this is.



So if "most people in Africa are Christian or Muslim" (unsupported assertion) then it's all right to:
1)Convert them from Muslim to Christian because Christian is better;
2)Convert them from one flavor of Christian to another flavor of Christian? Say, Catholic to Protestant?


I don't know what religion the people are that he was doing "Mission work" to. The idea that bothers me is that he will go to another continent and spend time and money to make Christians out of people on the other side of the world, even if they don't know what he's talking about or have no use for the concepts of Western religion or Christianity.


But he's convinced he's right, because his preacher told him they are always right. That's presumptuous and self-righteous. He thinks he knows what is better for the natives than they do. And he thinks that of ANYBODY who is not a Christian and preferably, Catholics as well.

The Great Commission and all that. He undoubtedly KNOWS, KNOWS with certainty, that I am going to hell. Because that's what he believes.


You completely missed my point about The Carter Center.
Helping people lead healthier lives without presuming to tell them "I have a better religion than you do, and you better LISTEN to me you heathen!!!You might get free food if you convert!"


You apparently don't get the concept of "socially sanctioned brainwashing".

[cbayer]

5. Lol. I can't believe you are schooling me on menstruation.

Sorry you had such a rough time. What do you think women in third world countries do?

Here's a map of religions in Africa



Are you just drawing conclusions about this guy, his church, his preacher, his motives based on the word mission, or did he tell you more?

Did he tell you he was converting people? Some missions involve a great deal of that. Others are primarily service projects.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

6. Women in third world countries suffer too.

In fact, they suffer more in not having running clean water and having indoor plumbing to stay clean.

But you are NOT SUPPOSED TO TALK ABOUT IT because the body is unclean and especially women's bodies are unclean. Menstrual taboos and all that from the Abrahamic religions.

[cbayer]

7. Wait, you are the one who described menstruation in such horrible terms.

I've never felt that way about it, which is why I don't think showers are particularly essential for women more than men. Menstruation is not dirty. It's natural and easily addressed for most women.

I want to again point out to you that you are not replying directly to a post here, but to the OP. I don't think that's your intention and when you do it, people can't see that you have replied to them in "My Posts".

[Manifestor_of_Light]

8. It's natural but I still think it's gross.

Childbirth is natural too, but it's also dangerous, can be life-threatening and is extremely messy.

"easily addressed"? That depends. I don't wanna get banned.
Read much more at www.mum.org

As far as assuming the guy I'm talking about was a Prot converting people, I will tell you why I assume that: Everyone in this entire region is exactly alike. Same religious/political/social views and attitudes.

It's rural and covers about twenty counties. Two of the congressmen are Louie Gohmert and Joe Barton.

These people are depressingly predictable. In my county seat of 10,000 people, I've met four people I consider non-conformists, and 3 of them are associated with the local community college (which has trouble getting enough people to sign up for some classes). I live in a smaller town.

The fourth person has an Art Car.

Assuming anybody I meet is a non-conformist is like going to an accountant's convention and assuming there will be an art exhibit of original museum-quality paintings & prints by the attendees, and a concert of original musical compositions and professional-grade singing by the attendees, and original movies written and shot and edited by the attendees.

Chances are it's not gonna happen.

[cbayer]

9. I don't think talking about menstruation is going to get you banned.

Anyway, I feel we have gotten way off track here. I have known both men and women who are very comfortable being in environments with exceptionally minimal facilities, and others that can't bear the thought of not having their hair dryers.

I guess if everyone is like that, you are going to have a difficult time getting your property landscaped if you use their religion to determine whether you will hire or not.

I understand that you live in an area where you feel different and isolated. While it may be difficult to find other non-conformists, there are probably more than you realize and they might be keeping their heads low.

But you might consider that not all religious people are so bad and you might find some kindred spirits among them if you give them a chance. I would suggest that the guy who went on a mission to Africa and is raising his grand-daughter might be ok if you don't paint him with a lot of presumptions about who he is.

And that brings us back to this article. I think the more exposure people have to each other, the more the prejudice will be reduced. And that includes the prejudice towards non-believers.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

12. QUOTE: "No bodily function threads"

I am not going to talk specifically about the many people I have nothing to talk to about because we have nothing in common. I could write many paragraphs and it would be wasted effort.

Inviting me to their church ( as some of them do) doesn't work. They are baffled when I say no. If I explain about my church that draws from many traditions, not just Christianity, they really glaze over.

They are not interested in the same things I am so we have nothing to talk about. Not just religion, politics, and lots of other things. They are often full of hate and I don't want to be around them when they spout off about President Obama, and get sexually excited about their guns, for example. They have no interest in the art or music or culture that I am interested in.

I haven't seen any Christians show any acceptance of my beliefs.
They seem to be really eager to tell me about Jesus but I don't tell them what I believe. I honestly don't talk about it because they assume everyone else is just like them. NONE of them have asked me about my spiritual journey to a place that I can accept.

One guy (that did a lot of work on my house and ignored hubby's advice, because he thought he knew more than my engineer husband who was telling him how to do something due to what he learned in Statics & Strength of Materials class) told me I was "going to hell if I meditated and worshiped Buddha." His own sons threatened to beat him up, after he hit their mother and the sons called him a sorry son of a bitch, which is true. He did a crappy job. His wife and kids hate his guts because he has nothing positive to offer them, just anger and negativity.

I don't think that any discussions with non-believers like me is going to change anyone's mind. They are convinced that they are right because their religion tells them they are the One True Religion (TM) and that they MUST convert others or else. The Great Commission. I know I'm repeating myself.

I don't think I have all the answers and nobody has all the answers. But they won't even consider disobedience and actual thinking (I covered that subject above as well). They are so rigid in their thinking it won't do to even attempt to discuss religion. They are into obsessive thinking so I guess they are insecure about their faith. Why would they need constant reinforcement?

I've had them butt into private conversations I was having with other people to tell me I was a Communist, or needed to have faith. They're pushy and intrusive in many cases. I don't need those people in my life because they're aggressive and I don't do well around aggressive people.


The difference between me and these unquestioning people is that I have gone to many different churches, and investigated lots of different belief systems. They have never even thought about asking questions because the answer to everything is "Because God said so" or "Because I'm the mommy or daddy and I said so."

No Christian on this website has answered a question I asked a long time ago: Are you a Christian because you were raised that way? or Are you a Christian because you sincerely questioned your beliefs and decided you truly did believe this religion?

I've gotten an unbelievable amount of waffling and "oh all belief systems have contradictions" and several other non-responsive answers.

I do not expect to get an honest answer from any Christian at this point.



Calling Christianity what it really is brings down cascades of anger and threats of "oh you're crossing the line here at DU".

[AtheistCrusader]

13. Not a problem.

I was in my 30's when I first heard of endometriosis, for instance. Had no idea. Awareness never hurts.

[cbayer]

15. Those are the old rules. There is currently a prohibition against extreme images of

bodily functions, but not rule about discussing bodily functions.

Of course, I can't give you much advice on how to find people that you would be comfortable with, but I still bet they are out there. Were it me, I would look for some volunteer opportunities at schools or hospitals or nursing homes. And I would simply avoid any discussion of religion.

No one wants to be told they are bad or wrong for what they believe. You don't like it and those you challenge don't like it. I would guess that your feelings about religion are equally as strong as theirs, just coming from a different direction. "Calling christianity what it is" is really just expressing your personal opinion, which is strong and rather harsh when it comes to this topic. Perhaps there are situations that one should avoid that discussion.

I am glad that you have some opportunity to socialize on DU. You have talked many times about how isolated you are out there.

And, to be quite honest, once you calm down, get away from the rhetoric and talk more honestly about yourself and your experiences, you are a pleasure to talk to.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

21. Thank you.

Calling Christianity a primitive superstitious cannibalistic death cult is not acceptable? Are we not to call out stupidity and truly damaging ideas when we see them?



Are not each of those words true? I have not had that discussion IRL, only on DU.


What about this thread in A&A "Contempt for religious ideas is not bigotry"? This is exactly what I am talking about.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/123017437
"Truly damaging speech cannot be excused just because it expresses genuine religious belief" (quote from the OP in this thread).

As Hitchens said: You do not get a pass on your damaging and harmful beliefs and practices just because your religion tells you to do these things.

I'm still waiting for answers to my question to Christians about truly choosing your faith.

[cbayer]

22. I guess you can call it anything you want, but I wouldn't be surprised when

others find it offensive and either punch back or just ignore you.

These are your opinions. They are not facts.

The fact is that others perceive religion very differently than you do. You can either accept that and let others religious beliefs alone, or you can aggressively challenge them using this kind of language and essentially end your relationship with them.

In terms of the Hitchens quote (and I'm not a fan of us by any means), I think the distinction needs to be made between beliefs and actions.

Beliefs are unique to the individual. If they do not impose on you or others, what difference does it make?

Actions on the other hand are open for judgement and confrontation if they do impinge on the rights of others.

I think there are as many answers to your last question as there are believers. I even think that some experience it as an essential part of who they are, similar to sexual identity or orientation. Again, I don't think it matters much how someone got where they are as long as their actions (driven by their beliefs) don't do harm to others. If you are looking for a single answer, I don't think you will ever get that.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

23. I could define each word in my description

but you would not accept it.

"Take, eat, this is my body" is symbolic cannibalism.

That's the same level of thinking as "If I eat tiger meat, I will be strong as a tiger" on a literal level.

That's extremely primitive tribal-level thinking. It's called "sympathetic magic."

Believe what you will, that's what mythology says it is.

[cbayer]

24. I'm not interested in debating theology.

I'm just mirroring back to you your style and how when you take a hard stand like this you will most likely alienate your audience.

What difference does it make to you if someone believes this?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

25. What I said is NOT theology.

I was stating plain dictionary definitions.

"Sympathetic magic" is a term I defined.

It is not theology. Theology deals with belief.

If you don't know the difference between the definition of a word and theology, I cannot help you. You do not understand what I said, whether you did it deliberately or not.

[cbayer]

26. See, you are losing me here because you are insulting me.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

27. I said you don't understand what I said.

That is NOT an ad hominem argument. I am being aboveboard and following the rules of logic.

I am talking about definitions of terms. Like a dictionary.

I am not talking about belief. Theology has to do with belief.

And you tell me I am stirring up shit.

If you don't understand the basic concepts I am talking about, you need to go back and read.

I am not going to waste my effort since you think I am insulting you.
You want to take offense, you can. I'm trying to define terms and have a discussion.

[cbayer]

28. Let me be clear, when you say things like

"You need to go back and read"

and

"I am not going to waste my effort"

and

"if you don't know the difference, I can't help you"

that comes off as very insulting.

If you think that's a good way to try and have a conversation, keep doing it. But don't be surprised when others disengage from you and move on.

[LostOne4Ever]

10. Interesting program

I really think something like this could help. Multiculturalism, in my opinion, has a very moderating influence that increases tolerance and understanding.

Though, I do wish the article had gone into more detail. How many religions and cultures do they connect? Do they include smaller religions like shinto? Or only focus on the big ones like Christianity, Islam, hindu and Buddhism?

Thanks for the article

[cbayer]

11. They also don't say whether they will include atheists or people who

don't identify with any religion.

But it's a good place to start and I like the program.

Glad you enjoyed the article.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. If they don't, they have no place in public schools.

They might, so withholding judgment. Comparative religion classes, for example, are clearly permissible, or people would miss an enormous chunk of cultural studies.

[cbayer]

16. These are not classes.

This is a program that hooks kids up with other kids that they would ordinarily not meet. The kids then talk to each other about their personal religion and culture. There is not didactic part that I can see.

I think some of the most profoundly changing experiences I have had have been when I travelled to places least like what I was familiar with. I see this as the same kind of thing.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. Not clear to me what part of the school facilities this would use.

Why not just make it a private thing? Then they can manage it however they please. like an old correspondence/post card thing, but much more content.

[cbayer]

18. Why would it matter what part of the school they would use.

It's a great program and I hope they reach their goal of 1,000 US schools this year.

There is nothing objectionable in this at all, as far as I can see.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. There are appropriate and inappropriate uses of school (Public) assets and time

and access to students. It is not clear to me at this time if this is appropriate or not. It may be.

[cbayer]

20. I understand that. I think this is entirely appropriate.

It's not endorsing or even practicing any religion.

I like your postcard analogy. I have found memories of having pen pals as a kid, but this does indeed kick it up a notch.