Religion
Related: About this forumRichard Dawkins speaks out on his child molestation comments.
Without my own comments, I'll just post his article.
http://www.richarddawkins.net/foundation_articles/2013/9/11/child-abuse-a-misunderstanding
by Richard Dawkins posted on September 12, 2013 02:40PM GMT
A is bad. B is worse. How dare you defend A?
Anon: epitome of several Twitter attacks.
In my memoir, An Appetite for Wonder, I wrote the following, about an incident at boarding school.
I would watch games of squash from the gallery, waiting for the game to end so I could slip down and practise by myself. One day I must have been about eleven there was a master in the gallery with me. He pulled me onto his knee and put his hand inside my shorts. He did no more than have a little feel, but it was extremely disagreeable (the cremasteric reflex is not painful, but in a skin-crawling, creepy way it is almost worse than painful) as well as embarrassing. As soon as I could wriggle off his lap, I ran to tell my friends, many of whom had had the same experience with him. I dont think he did any of us any lasting damage, but some years later he killed himself.
This paragraph, together with a subsequent statement to the Times that I would not judge that teacher by the standards of today, has been heavily criticised. These criticisms represent a misunderstanding, which I would like to clear up.
The standards of today are conditioned by our increasing familiarity with the traumatising effect that pedophile abuse can have on children, sometimes scarring them psychologically for life. Today we read, almost daily, of adults whose childhood was blighted by an uncle perhaps, or even a parent, who would day after day, week after week, year after year, sexually abuse a vulnerable child. The child would often have no escape, would not be believed if he/she told the other parent, or told a teacher. In many cases it is only now, when the abused children have reached adulthood, that these stories are coming out. To make light of their stories, even after all these years, might in some cases re-awaken the trauma of not being believed at the time when it was all happening, and when being believed would have meant so much to the child.
Only slightly less culpable than the abusers themselves are the institutions that protected them, of which the most prominent examples are to be found in the senior hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church. This is why I personally donated £10,000 of my own money towards a fund, instigated by Christopher Hitchens and me, to build the legal case for prosecuting Pope Benedict XVI for his part (when Cardinal Ratzinger) in covering up sexual abuse of children by priests. Our initiative, for which I paid 50%, the rest being raised by Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris, resulted in the book The Case of the Pope: Vatican accountability for human rights abuse, in which the distinguished barrister Geoffrey Robertson QC laid out the case for the prosecution should any jurisdiction in the world choose to take it up in the future.
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gopiscrap
(23,726 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Dawkins bad. Defending pedophiles. Bigot.
Will be interested to see how the Dawkins haters will spin this.
rug
(82,333 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Pedophilia is not so bad, except where priests are involved. School masters not such a big deal, especially if it only happens once in a while. Keep digging that hole.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)I think this sums up his clarification of his statement:
But I know it is much easier for people to just think he doesn't get the impact of pedophilia.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)He and I are of the same generation and education. His school experience was similar to mine and, as good little English boys, we used to blow off those "unfortunate" experiences as a normal part of growing up. Stiff upper lip, build a backbone kind of stuff. Whether one was "damaged" as a result is irrelevant. The behavior was just as inappropriate back then as it is now.
He asks "what should I have said about my own thirty seconds of nastiness back in the 1950s?". Well, he sure as hell shouldn't have brushed it off as harmless, just because HE wasn't harmed by it. The message he gives by minimizing it may be more damaging than the behavior of any one pedophile. Dawkins is a role model to millions and should hold himself to a higher standard when opening his mouth.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)In the God Delusion he relates that he knew of several masters who were doing this and knew it was happening to other kids.
He made the decision to get up and leave, but other children may have been too intimidated to do this and it probably went way beyond a little touching.
How he can be so forgiving when it's public school masters and so condemning when it comes to priests is overtly hypocritical.
Perhaps he should donate another 10,000 pounds to a fund to build the legal case for prosecuting those in the school systems that probably covered this up. Now that would be an apology.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)He was saying that even in something as gross as child molestation, there are degrees of harm. Dawkins himself had a one-time incident that he says didn't harm him very much, but he also acknowledges the really depraved acts of child molestation that caused grievous harm to victims.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)The outrage of victims that has exploded everywhere is a testament to the gross insensitivity of his comments.
Of course there are degrees of harm. What there is not is mild or minor pedophilia. It's an illness and a crime.
He only acknowledges that it was grievous when it went on in the RCC.
Wonder if he reported it at the time. Wonder how much serious abuse went on in these schools that was covered up.
Wonder how different this is than what went on in the RCC.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)And Dawkins himself apologized in the article.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Did he report it? I believe his answer was no, because the norms were different at the time. Today, we understand the harm of child molestation more than we used to, but back in the day of Dawkins' childhood, the norms were sadly different, and a certain amount of kiddie-fiddling was unfortunately tolerated. And I'll bet that sort of thing was pretty widespread.
I think that was part of the points Dawkins was making, though he could have phrased it better. I don't think he endorses child molestation at all.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)And I agree that it was much less talked about and, subsequently, probably more tolerated in the past.
He notes that the kids shared this information among themselves, though. Well, at least some of them did.
IMHO, he's in a great position to stand up and say, "Child molestation is a horrible thing and it doesn't just happen in religious organizations", instead of starting a fund that targets just the RCC. He's in the position to shine light on the issues that also occurred in the public schools and to take them very seriously.
He has made an error in judgement here, imo.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)I do get my hackles up at some of the folks who were accusing Dawkins of endorsing child molestation, or, worse, being a child molester. To them, I say REALLY?!
I've seen Dawkins in person a few times. He's certainly no friend of child molesters.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)He uses the word "misunderstanding", not mistake. And the only time the word apologize appears is at the end and it is preceded by a great deal of "ifs" and is applied only to his schoolmates.
Pretty weak.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)He refers to repeated, extended molestations where the victim felt they had no escape as being especially grievous. He acknowledges that many people have suffered repeated, extended molestation. He uses the RCC as a very visible example and one that is even more grievous than an uncle molesting his relative (as an example from me) because a religious institution was covering it up and putting the criminal in a new place with new victims.
But he DOES NOT only say it is bad when priests in the RCC do it. He just doesn't. As much as you want him to, he doesn't. Stop creating strawmen, please.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Facts have NO PLACE in a thread about Richard Dawkins. Those individuals who are unnerved by his arguments against religion and can't answer them have no other choice but to slander his character, and as we see in this group time and time again. They'll make shit up if necessary, because I guess in their minds the ends justify the means.
So we get things like:
Dawkins says being propositioned in an elevator isn't as bad as FGM? ZOMG, Dawkins is a horrible misogynist and thinks that rape is OK!
Dawkins says he doesn't think he or his friends suffered long-term harm from an isolated incident? ZOMG, he is excusing child rape for everyone at all times!
Forgot this one: Dawkins says that being told one's friends will burn in hell in eternity is child abuse? ZOMG, he just said that teaching your child about religion is child abuse - what a bigot!
Lather, rinse, repeat.
rug
(82,333 posts)You think it's "in this group"? Wishful thinking.