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cbayer

(146,218 posts)
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 04:53 PM Sep 2013

Suicide Attack at Church in Pakistan Kills Dozens

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/world/asia/pakistan-church-bombing.html


Deadly Attack at Pakistan Church: A suicide attack on a historic Christian church in northwestern Pakistan killed dozens on Sunday.

By ISMAIL KHAN and SALMAN MASOOD
Published: September 22, 2013

PESHAWAR, Pakistan — A suicide attack on a historic Christian church in northwestern Pakistan killed at least 78 people on Sunday in one of the deadliest attacks on the Christian minority in Pakistan in years.

The attack occurred as worshipers left All Saints Church in the old quarter of the regional capital, Peshawar, after a service on Sunday morning. Up to 600 people had attended the service and were leaving to receive free food being distributed on the lawn outside when two explosions ripped through the crowd.

“As soon as the service finished and the food was being distributed, all of a sudden we heard one explosion, followed by another,” said Azim Ghori, a witness.

Interior Minister Nisar Ali Khan, who arrived in Peshawar on Sunday evening, said that 78 people had been killed, including 34 women and 7 children. “Such an attack on women and children is against humanity,” Mr. Khan said.

Akhtar Ali Shah, the home secretary of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province, said that more than 100 people had been wounded. Mr. Khan said that 37 of those were children.

more at link
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Suicide Attack at Church in Pakistan Kills Dozens (Original Post) cbayer Sep 2013 OP
This is just so sad. People should feel safe going to church. hrmjustin Sep 2013 #1
Agree, justin. cbayer Sep 2013 #2
A horror. rug Sep 2013 #3
"The terrorists have no religion" dimbear Sep 2013 #4
"targeting innocent people is against the teachings of Islam and all religions" rug Sep 2013 #5
That's one interpretation... MellowDem Sep 2013 #6
Intellectual dishonesty is opinion masquerading as paraphrase. rug Sep 2013 #7
And that might lead to cognitive dissonance!! cbayer Sep 2013 #8
God forbid. rug Sep 2013 #9
Snarky irrelevant one line responses are immature and nonproductive MellowDem Sep 2013 #10
I did. It was a measured response. rug Sep 2013 #11
No, you didn't MellowDem Sep 2013 #12
Did too. rug Sep 2013 #13
Nope, and you still haven't MellowDem Sep 2013 #14
Yup. rug Sep 2013 #15
No, you haven't MellowDem Sep 2013 #18
Prove it. "The Koran advocates the killing of innocent people". No qualifications. Prove that. rug Sep 2013 #19
"O ye who have believed, MellowDem Sep 2013 #21
"You shall not kill any person for God has made life sacred, except in the course of justice." 17:33 rug Sep 2013 #22
And the apologetics and intellectual dishonesty begin... MellowDem Sep 2013 #23
You're the one who claimed the murder of innocents. rug Sep 2013 #24
No, I'm not talking about jihad... MellowDem Sep 2013 #25
Muhammad was quite clear about this sort of thing. okasha Sep 2013 #16
First of all, let me point out how stupid of an idea that is... MellowDem Sep 2013 #17
But, but, but, religion is an ethical framework! longship Sep 2013 #20
Monday update: 85 dead. Not the first such incident, probably not the last. n/t dimbear Sep 2013 #26

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
2. Agree, justin.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 05:01 PM
Sep 2013

They should also feel safe in shopping malls, schools and theaters.

Violence is just sad anywhere it happens.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
3. A horror.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 05:02 PM
Sep 2013


A girl sits between injured victims waiting for treatment at a hospital in Peshawar on Sunday.

Mr. Sharif condemned the attack. “The terrorists have no religion, and targeting innocent people is against the teachings of Islam and all religions,” he said in a statement.

The Pakistan Ulema Council, the largest clerical body, also condemned the blast, saying that the council was “standing with our Christian brothers in this tragedy.”

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
5. "targeting innocent people is against the teachings of Islam and all religions"
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 05:36 PM
Sep 2013

Suspicions are a poor foundation for conclusions.

Perhaps you can correct his statement.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
6. That's one interpretation...
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:05 PM
Sep 2013

But it's easy to see from reading the Koran that the other interpretation is just as relevant. The Koran advocates horrible things. The practical minded ignore those parts in order to survive in the real world. In other words, intellectual dishonesty is a must in order for followers of a book like the Koran to not do all sorts of horrible things.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
10. Snarky irrelevant one line responses are immature and nonproductive
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 08:49 PM
Sep 2013

If you disagree with something I said, address it. Because this was gibberish.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
18. No, you haven't
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:11 PM
Sep 2013

The Koran advocates the killing of innocent people, and it just takes intellectual dishonesty to ignore or use poor apologetics to explain away those parts. Like the punishment for apostates. Saying that "Islam" is against such acts is an opinion, not a fact. And it's a poor opinion given the evidence of the words written in the Koran.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
19. Prove it. "The Koran advocates the killing of innocent people". No qualifications. Prove that.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:24 PM
Sep 2013

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
21. "O ye who have believed,
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 12:12 AM
Sep 2013

prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." 2:178

"And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers." 2:191

"Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors." 2:193

"Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not." 2:216

"They ask you about the sacred month - about fighting therein. Say, "Fighting therein is great [sin], but averting [people] from the way of Allah and disbelief in Him and [preventing access to] al-Masjid al-Haram and the expulsion of its people therefrom are greater [evil] in the sight of Allah . And fitnah is greater than killing." And they will continue to fight you until they turn you back from your religion if they are able. And whoever of you reverts from his religion [to disbelief] and dies while he is a disbeliever - for those, their deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and those are the companions of the Fire, they will abide therein eternally." 2:217

"They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper." 4:89

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." 9:5

"O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination." 9 3

"O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous." 9:123

http://quran.com/

There's a nice sampling. Not to mention, the hundreds of verses describing the painful eternal torture Allah will rain down on every nonbeliever, and quite a few instances of Allah killing nonbelievers in all sorts of ways because, well, they didn't believe. I'll quote them if you want, but this is getting long. Hmm, wonder if this has any sort of dehumanizing effect on the perception of "nonbelievers"? And no TRUE Muslim would take these verses as advocating the killing of nonbelievers. I mean, WHERE would they get THAT idea?

Then there are the hadiths. Let's just say quite a few of them seem to take these verses quite literally. Hence, the punishment for apostasy being death. And that's just scratching the surface.

That's a lot of innocent people being killed by Allah himself, not to mention the eternal torture of innocents, in the Koran. And lots of verses telling Muslims to kill unbelievers because, well, of their nonbelief.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
22. "You shall not kill any person for God has made life sacred, except in the course of justice." 17:33
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 12:23 AM
Sep 2013
http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/the_concept_of_jihad_(P1360).html

You really should read up on the meaning of jihad rather than extract random quotes.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
23. And the apologetics and intellectual dishonesty begin...
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 12:37 AM
Sep 2013

You linked to a site called "True Islam". Ever heard of the No True Scotsmen fallacy?

Saying you shall not kill any person "except in the course of justice" is a big loophole. Allah has killed tons of innocent nonbelievers in the course of "justice" in the Koran. So, not helping your case here.

Again, the Koran does indeed advocate the killing of innocents. Allah does it himself! It's why there are more than a few Muslims today who quite sincerely believe that killing nonbelievers is A-OK.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
24. You're the one who claimed the murder of innocents.
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 12:40 AM
Sep 2013

Your value judgment is what is your opinion.

I'll repeat. Extracting random quotes is not proof of your opinion.

The concept you're trying to grasp is jihad.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
25. No, I'm not talking about jihad...
Mon Sep 23, 2013, 12:57 AM
Sep 2013

I claimed it advocates killing innocents, and I stand by that opinion and value judgment (why you asked me to "prove" an opinion, I don't know). I think I've provided very good evidence of that position.

Any religion where the god is all powerful and can do no wrong AND kills innocents just because they don't believe in him AND says every nonbeliever will burn for eternity in hell AND prescribes believers to kill nonbelievers in quite a few verses, even saying that nonbelief is worse than killing, will likely create the impression in some believers that it's OK to kill nonbelievers, especially as nonbelievers are NOT portrayed as innocent, they are demonized.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
16. Muhammad was quite clear about this sort of thing.
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 09:12 PM
Sep 2013

"Never kill a child; never kill a woman; never kill an old man; and never cut down a green tree."

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
17. First of all, let me point out how stupid of an idea that is...
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:04 PM
Sep 2013

Does that mean young men (what age?) are fair game to be killed? Why? And what if a woman is coming at you with a knife? Can't kill in self-defense? And what's with women getting protection but not men? This is quote is dripping with the cultural baggage of primitive patriarchal societies. And it's certainly not "clear" in quite a few ways, especially given the other parts of Islamic teaching that directly contradict it, calling for the killing of women in certain situations.

Not to mention, Muhammed ordered the killing of a lot of people in his wars. Which poses another question, who is "innocent"? Hmm. Yeah, no killing except for "lawful" killing. What a convenient thing. Why is it OK to kill in wars of conquest?

And then there is the whole punishment for apostasy thing... Hmm, if a person is practicing Islam "wrong" maybe they're an apostate!

It's pretty easy to see why believing a book like the Koran is actually the word of god can have very bad consequences. It's contradictory and non-sensical and can be interpreted in a lot of ways, and each interpretation is just as valid as the next because none of them are based on anything verifiable. Which is why we see a lot of people to this day killing in the name of Islam.

longship

(40,416 posts)
20. But, but, but, religion is an ethical framework!
Sun Sep 22, 2013, 10:27 PM
Sep 2013

Nonsense!

An excerpt:

All Saints Church is one of the oldest in Peshawar and was built during the British colonial era. It is at Kohati Gate in the city’s old quarter, where numerous militant attacks have occurred in recent years, mostly targeting Muslims.

Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif has been trying to initiate peace talks with the Pakistani Taliban, aimed at ending a decade of violence. An all-parties political conference held this month gave the government approval to start negotiations with the insurgents.

But that offer was publicly rejected by the Taliban, which later claimed responsibility for the killing of a senior army general in Upper Dir, near the Afghan border, last week.

Immediately after Sunday’s bombing, questions were again raised about the government’s plans to hold peace talks.


By all means, let's have negotiations! We need to find a way to decide just how much murder and mayhem in the name of Allah or Jesus meek and mild is appropriate. In the meantime, stay out of our way while we continue our program (dare one say pogrom?) of bombing each others places of worship.

We're doing God's work here. Get out of our way.

I am disgusted by this.

Religion poisons everything.

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