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ItsjustMe

(11,230 posts)
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 05:27 AM Jul 2021

This message was self-deleted by its author

This message was self-deleted by its author (ItsjustMe) on Sat Mar 12, 2022, 10:02 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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This message was self-deleted by its author (Original Post) ItsjustMe Jul 2021 OP
That's a theology that I could accept. wnylib Jul 2021 #1
I read that the idea of a devil is only about 2000 yrs old captain queeg Jul 2021 #2
Post removed Post removed Jul 2021 #3
Spong is a gift to humankind. RobertDevereaux Jul 2021 #4
It would be a much better world if we had more like him. paleotn Jul 2021 #7
"...the people don't need to be born again; they need to grow up" 70sEraVet Jul 2021 #5
Salvation: Enhancing your humanity rather than rescuing you from it. paleotn Jul 2021 #6
What he says really speaks to me nuxvomica Jul 2021 #8
Well said. cachukis Jul 2021 #9
Well, anyone who reads history knows that's not the case. shrike3 Jul 2021 #10
My husband, he atheist, loved Bishop Spong wryter2000 Nov 2021 #11
Some people place it in the sky. old as dirt Mar 2022 #12

wnylib

(21,421 posts)
1. That's a theology that I could accept.
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 05:45 AM
Jul 2021

captain queeg

(10,157 posts)
2. I read that the idea of a devil is only about 2000 yrs old
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 06:00 AM
Jul 2021

Response to ItsjustMe (Original post)

RobertDevereaux

(1,856 posts)
4. Spong is a gift to humankind.
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 08:14 AM
Jul 2021

paleotn

(17,911 posts)
7. It would be a much better world if we had more like him.
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 08:22 AM
Jul 2021

70sEraVet

(3,483 posts)
5. "...the people don't need to be born again; they need to grow up"
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 08:19 AM
Jul 2021

Right on, Spong!

paleotn

(17,911 posts)
6. Salvation: Enhancing your humanity rather than rescuing you from it.
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 08:20 AM
Jul 2021

Interesting concept for someone like me who was raised on humans are inherently sinful and bound for hell, and salvation from that inevitability can only be found by grace through faith in Jesus. No magic words, special water, dunk or sprinkle. Just accept who you are and evolve as a member of a highly cooperative species. I can live with that. Works for the religious and irreligious alike.



nuxvomica

(12,419 posts)
8. What he says really speaks to me
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 08:24 AM
Jul 2021

I have been ruminating about how, in politics especially, we can substitute an understanding of the hero's journey for traditional morality and religion, which are too contentious, and often at odds with the impulse for personal heroism. An instinctive model for a meaningful life, the heroic cycle, as established in myth and literature, acts as a guide for becoming a mature, empowered adult, the sort of adult that I think the Founding Fathers envisioned as necessary for a stable democracy. Bishop Spong nails it when he says that "the church doesn't like people growing up," which is contrary to the heroic impulse, the very impulse to grow up, discover one's powers and use them to transform the world into a safe place for the innocent to thrive, mature and continue the cycle anew. I see the choice as binary: grow up by becoming this protector/hero, or continue past adolescence in a permanent twilight of childhood, a state of no responsibility but also a state of constant fear (including the fear of hell) where one uses the powers of adulthood to protect oneself with more wealth or weaponry or political power—ultimately the path of the villain. In plainer terms, I see most of the problems in society arising from a state of arrested development, which the church actually encourages.

cachukis

(2,231 posts)
9. Well said.
Sat Jul 10, 2021, 09:11 AM
Jul 2021

shrike3

(3,567 posts)
10. Well, anyone who reads history knows that's not the case.
Wed Jul 21, 2021, 08:48 PM
Jul 2021

The Greeks had Tartarus, a place in the underworld where the wicked were tortured for all eternity.

There was a sect in Egypt that believed when you die you went before a tribunal. If you were good, you went up to paradise. If you were bad you went down to flames. Sounds familiar?

The notion of hell probably came about because so many bad people do bad things and get away with them. We'd all like to think that somehow, someway they'll get theirs.

wryter2000

(46,032 posts)
11. My husband, he atheist, loved Bishop Spong
Tue Nov 16, 2021, 04:00 PM
Nov 2021

I ended up returning to the Episcopal church in 2009, and now I love my church. I wonder what my husband, the atheist, would think of that if he were alive. I know he would have loved our music, and I'm sure he'd enjoy debating theology with my rector.

 

old as dirt

(1,972 posts)
12. Some people place it in the sky.
Sun Mar 13, 2022, 12:54 AM
Mar 2022
The Devil and Commodity Fetishism in South America

Michael T. Taussig

https://selforganizedseminar.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/taussig_devil_commodity.pdf

snip---------

Part II: The Plantations of the Cauca Valley in Colombia

CHAPTER 3: Slave Religion and the Rise of the Free Peasantry


Two generalizations are necessary to any discussion of black slave religion in Latin America. First, the whites were apprehensive of the supernatural powers of their subjects, and vice versa. Second, religion was inseparable from magic, and both permeated everyday life—agriculture, mining, economy, healing, marital affairs, and social relations in general. The Inquisition, for instance, regarded the occult arts that were drawn from the three continents not as idle fantasies but as the exercise of supernatural powers, including an explicit or implicit pact with the devil. The African slaves brought their mysteries and sorcery, the Indians their occult powers to cure or kill, and the colonists their own belief in magic (Lea, 1908:462).

The magical lore of the European was joined to that of the despised African and Indian to form a symbiosis, transformation, and adaptation of forms unknown to each group. This process was most obvious in beliefs concerning illness and healing. The Europeans had few efficacious medical resources, and their curing depended heavily on religious and magical faith: masses, prayers to the saints, rosary beads, holy water, and miracles wrought by priests and folk curers. The indoctrination of African slaves by Catholic priests focused on curing, which exploited the miracle-yielding power of the Christian pantheon to the utmost (Sandoval, 1956). Conversely, the Europeans availed themselves of their subjects' magic, which was not distinguished from religion. In fact, the Europeans defined African and Indian religion not merely as magic but as evil magic. "It is in this trance," writes Gustavo Otero, referring to the first days of the conquest, "that the conquerors became the conquered" (1951: 128). That restless dialectic of magical counter attributions persists in popular culture to the present day.

Colonization and enslavement inadvertently delivered a special mystical power to the underdog of colonial society—the power of mystic evil as embodied in the Christians' fear of the devil. The quasi-Manichaean dualistic cosmology of the conquerors coexisted with the polytheistic or animistic monism of the African slaves and Indians, so that the conquerors stood to the conquered as God did to the devil. Thus, the popular religion of Spanish America was stamped with ethnic and class dualisms of this momentous order —ever susceptible to mercurial inversions in accordance with the shifting currents of caste and class power.

The Inquisition was founded in Cartagena in the early seventeenth century for reasons that included the Church Fathers' judgment of the colony as the "most vicious and sinful in the Spanish Dominions, [with] the faith on the point of destruction" (Lea, 1908 :456). Female slaves served as healers to such exalted personages as the bishop of Cartagena and the inquisitors themselves, while others were lashed when their occult powers were defined as evil, especially when epidemics of witchcraft were raging. Male sorcerers (brujos) became important leaders in the runaway slave camps (palenques} which caused the authorities endless concern (Borrego Pla, 1973 :27, 83; Tejado Fernandez, 1954:117-32). As intermediaries for Satan, such leaders supposedly initiated their converts in a ritual that mocked Christian baptism and denied God, the saints, and the Virgin Mary in order to achieve salvation in the afterlife and wealth and power in the here and now. This system of belief expresses the specter of social inversion. Teleologically ordered by the Supreme God, the hierarchy of social forms defined by class, color, and sex engendered its mirror image in the fears or hopes of an underworld allied with Satan.

Blacks were notorious for their militantly anti-Christian outbursts, which were macabrely ritualized in the sine qua non of slavery, flogging; at such times it was not unusual for the victim to cry, "I denounce God!" (Medina, 1889:106; cf., Palmer, 1975). They also destroyed symbols of the church—hardly surprising in a society in which, for example, a woman slave owner might measure the duration of a flogging by the time it took her to recite her rosary (Meiklejohn, 1968:216).

Writing in 1662, the chief inquisitor attributed much of the sorcery and idolatry in the mining districts to the heedless materialism of the mineowners, who "live only for profit. . . and keep watch only that the slaves accomplish their daily labor and care for nothing else" (Medina, 1889:12,0). Ostensibly, this sorcery could not only kill and maim people but also destroy the fruits of the earth—a claim still heard in connection with alleged devil pacts made by plantation laborers in the southern Cauca Valley. The pact will increase their productivity and their wage, but renders the canefield barren. Yet, the same laborers, working as peasants on their own or their neighbors' plots around the plantations or as independent subsistence dwellers in the jungles of the Pacific coast, reputedly spurn such pacts. Zaragoza, the mining area referred to, was the scene of one of Colombia's greatest slave revolts, which, according to observers, attempted to exterminate the whites and destroy the mines, as well (Vazquez de Espinosa, 1948 :34i).

The spasmodic moment that bridged the lash and the cry of renunciation of the master's God epitomizes the slaves' devil. He can become a figure of solace and power in that war of attrition against the African's culture and humanity itself. In their devil worship, the slaves appropriated their enemy's enemy. Ironically, through its very attempts at suppression, the Church indirectly validated devil worship and invested it with power. By acknowledging fear of the slaves' spiritual powers, the credulous Spanish inadvertently delivered a powerful instrument to their bondsmen. The Spaniards believed that the devil had spawned the heathen African and that the slaves were part of his ministry. The sixteenth and seventeenth centuries were, after all, the most intense years of the witch cult in Western Europe, the Counter-Reformation, and the Inquisition—an epoch in which the whole of Christendom trembled before the threat of the diabolic and the magician's manipulation of nature.

Ambiguously but persistently, Europeans equated slave folklore and religion, African identity, with the devil (cf., Genovese, 1974: 159-284). But for the African slave the devil was not necessarily the vengeful spirit of evil. He was also a figure of mirth and a powerful trickster. As Melville J. Herskovits pointed out, West Africans understood the European devil as their divine trickster, and their moral philosophy resisted the sharp dichotomy of good and evil espoused by the missionaries (195 8:2 5 3). Today, along the virtually isolated rivers of the Colombian Pacific coast, where blacks were largely left to fend for themselves after emancipation, they have, not one, but several devils, who tempt rather than threaten. The idea of hell among the blacks of the Raposo River only vaguely corresponds to the Christian idea; some people place it in the sky (Pavy, 1967:2,34). Finding their spirits defined as devils or one in particular defined as the devil, the blacks did not readily attribute evil to the "devil," at least not at first. And even if they did, the attribution could have signified hostility to the new order.

Describing the Apo ceremony among the Ashanti, William Bosman wrote during the late seventeenth century:

Conjurors and Miracle-Mongers are no strange things amongst the Negroes: they firmly believe in them, but in a different manner from our European Ridiculous Opinionists; who are persuaded no Conjuror can do any feats without the help of the Devil. For on the contrary, the Negroes do not doubt but that 'tis a gift of God, and though in reality it is a downright cheat, yet they, ignorant of the Fraud, swallow it as a Miracle, and above Humane power; but that the Devil may not in the least participate of the Honour, they ascribe it all to God. [1967:157-58]


snip--------

(pages 41-44)

https://www.amazon.com/Devil-Commodity-Fetishism-South-America/dp/0807871338?tag=delphiforum08-20
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