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Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:37 AM Oct 2015

Sorry, Einstein. Quantum Study Suggests ‘Spooky Action’ Is Real.

In a landmark study, scientists at Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands reported that they had conducted an experiment that they say proved one of the most fundamental claims of quantum theory — that objects separated by great distance can instantaneously affect each other’s behavior.

The finding is another blow to one of the bedrock principles of standard physics known as “locality,” which states that an object is directly influenced only by its immediate surroundings. The Delft study, published Wednesday in the journal Nature, lends further credence to an idea that Einstein famously rejected. He said quantum theory necessitated “spooky action at a distance,” and he refused to accept the notion that the universe could behave in such a strange and apparently random fashion.


Einstein was deeply unhappy with the uncertainty introduced by quantum theory and described its implications as akin to God’s playing dice.

But since the 1970s, a series of precise experiments by physicists are increasingly erasing doubt — alternative explanations that are referred to as loopholes — that two previously entangled particles, even if separated by the width of the universe, could instantly interact.

The new experiment, conducted by a group led by Ronald Hanson, a physicist at the Dutch university’s Kavli Institute of Nanoscience, and joined by scientists from Spain and England, is the strongest evidence yet to support the most fundamental claims of the theory of quantum mechanics about the existence of an odd world formed by a fabric of subatomic particles, where matter does not take form until it is observed and time runs backward as well as forward.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/22/science/quantum-theory-experiment-said-to-prove-spooky-interactions.html

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Sorry, Einstein. Quantum Study Suggests ‘Spooky Action’ Is Real. (Original Post) Ichingcarpenter Oct 2015 OP
That's been known for quite some time. longship Oct 2015 #1
The article says this "is the strongest evidence yet" freeplessinseattle Oct 2015 #2
Yup. With science, it's not over until it's over... DreamGypsy Oct 2015 #3
They're closing loopholes caraher Oct 2015 #5
So we get an FTL now, right? Android3.14 Oct 2015 #4
A Star Trek wet dream? longship Oct 2015 #6
All of science? That's simply not so Android3.14 Oct 2015 #7
Oopsie! longship Oct 2015 #8
The arrogance of the sort-of informed Android3.14 Oct 2015 #9
Well, I'll continue to put my money on established physics. longship Oct 2015 #10
I'd gently suggest that you are misinformed as to the differences between principles and theories Android3.14 Oct 2015 #12
Well, I will stand by my posts. longship Oct 2015 #13
Einstein "we can only make tentative deductions" SoLeftIAmRight Oct 2015 #11
Does this theory support the prevention of the merging of, neighbor Universes or DhhD Oct 2015 #14
the kaon oscillation mystery Ichingcarpenter Oct 2015 #15

longship

(40,416 posts)
1. That's been known for quite some time.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 09:03 AM
Oct 2015

Love Einstein -- I recommend Walter Issacson's biography -- but he was wrong. "God" does play dice. All the evidence for the past 60 years or so demonstrates that.

But yup! Einstein was still a very cool guy and he got a lot of stuff right.

R&K


DreamGypsy

(2,252 posts)
3. Yup. With science, it's not over until it's over...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 10:53 AM
Oct 2015

The word "yet" is key.

Scientific conjectures, theories, and results need to be falsifiable, and the scientific community exists to support this requirement.

The result presented is a great example of the principle.

“I think this is a beautiful and ingenious experiment and it will help to push the entire field forward,” said David Kaiser, a physicist at M.I.T., who was not involved in the study. However, Dr. Kaiser, who is with another group of physicists who are preparing to perform an even more ambitious experiment next year that will soon measure light captured at the far edges of the universe, also said he did not think every scintilla of doubt had been erased by the Dutch experiment.

<snip>

“The experiment has closed two of the three major loopholes beautifully, but two out of three isn’t three,” Dr. Kaiser said. “I believe in my bones that quantum mechanics is the correct description of nature. But to make the strongest statement, frankly we’re not there.”

A potential weakness of the experiment, he suggested, is that an electronic system the researchers used to add randomness to their measurement may in fact be predetermined in some subtle way that is not easily detectable, meaning that the outcome might still be predetermined as Einstein believed.

To attempt to overcome this weakness and close what they believe is a final loophole, the National Science Foundation has financed a group of physicists led by Dr. Kaiser and Alan H. Guth, also at M.I.T., to attempt an experiment that will have a better chance of ensuring the complete independence of the measurement detectors by gathering light from distant objects on different sides of the galaxy next year, and then going a step further by capturing the light from objects known as quasars near the edge of the universe in 2017 and 2018.


Can you imagine how much better off humanity (and the planet we live on) would be if religions operated this way??

caraher

(6,278 posts)
5. They're closing loopholes
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 12:51 PM
Oct 2015

Most people were convinced by Apect in the early '80s... but there have always been gaps that prevent interpretating previous experiments as conclusive.

longship

(40,416 posts)
6. A Star Trek wet dream?
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 01:26 PM
Oct 2015

Realize that warp drive was a plot device to get it past the next commercial and it was precisely as fast as was needed to move the story forward.

Yup! It was good at that, which is why Star Trek was so great. But transporters, warp drives, and sub-space were mere plot devices. They were like the pseudo-Latin magic invocations in the Harry Potter series.

That said, fiction always has such things. One has to accept them to get the narrative. If one cannot do that possibly one cannot enjoy the underlying story.

But no. All of science says that there will never be warp drives. Too bad. It is such a great plot device. (Just like time travel, which inevitably invokes a much more tangled plot. )


 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
7. All of science? That's simply not so
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 01:44 PM
Oct 2015

A NASA article on this topic links to Tauzero, an organization Marc Millis, a former NASA Glenn physicist, founded to consider revolutionary advancements in propulsion.

longship

(40,416 posts)
8. Oopsie!
Sun Oct 25, 2015, 01:58 PM
Oct 2015

There is still the conservation of momentum, and Newton's laws.

This is like the recent articles about reactionless drives.

This is not so much NASA physics as it is a former NASA guy promoting kookery.

When one proposes a thing that violates primary physics one must first explain why the primary physics is wrong. All this dude is saying is that he has apparently done that without actually doing that. The rocket equation says that there is no such thing as a reactionless engine. In other words, with my car in neutral and engine not running no matter hard I press on my steering wheel my car will remain immobile.

Such claims do not go so well.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
9. The arrogance of the sort-of informed
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 06:53 AM
Oct 2015

There are several ways to to possibly sneak around the c speed limit, from wormholes to quantum entanglement.

These do not violate "primary physics" (whatever that means). What you think you know about the Standard Model is just a little dated.

Anyone with any grounding in science recognizes that stating absolutes about the mechanics of the universe is foolish at best.

longship

(40,416 posts)
10. Well, I'll continue to put my money on established physics.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 07:17 AM
Oct 2015

And not making shit up.

And I certainly would not donate money to Any enterprise (see what I did there?) which claims that they can overthrow such things, just because.

The physical principles work for a reason and science accepts their universality for very good reasons. Those who object had god damn better have some good evidence, which they never, ever do.

So the kooks have that going for them. Basically nothing, in other words.

FTL travel? Show me. Etc.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
12. I'd gently suggest that you are misinformed as to the differences between principles and theories
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 04:15 PM
Oct 2015

I'll continue to put my money on the human drive to discover. It's what propelled us past all those sort-of-informed naysayers who told us we couldn't fly, travel faster than the speed of sound or fit a computer inside the head of a pin.

As for evidence, I do believe the article over which we are having this discussion has some good evidence.

As far as "making shit up", it was you who erroneously stated, "All of science says that there will never be warp drives," a statement which my links prove is your own made up shit.

longship

(40,416 posts)
13. Well, I will stand by my posts.
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 05:20 PM
Oct 2015

The concept of FTL travel is a well known trope in SciFi. It moves the plot forward. Everybody accepts it as such and ignores that the science behind it is dodgy, at best.

Like the Star Trek transporter, which operates in the plot similarly, is also not likely possible, let alone practical. Actually, the transporter is a bit frightening if one considers the concept of continuity. The red shirt on the pad is destroyed and a duplicate is created at the destination. I wouldn't step onto that pad for all the money in the world.

This stuff is fun to discuss. But I draw the line at any claims that they are real, or could be implemented. Indeed, that may be my bias, however I think it is a safe bet that we'll never see warp drives (FTL travel ) or transporters any time soon.

Oh! And one last thing about science is that one must be willing to change ones mind if new information comes to light. I admit that as well. But I see no reason to change my thinking on these topics as of now. Certainly there is no hard science to convince me, just fringe stuff. It is like Sagan said, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." FTL travel is clearly an extraordinary claim because relativity says it should not be possible and nobody has shown any flaw in that yet.

My best to you.

 

SoLeftIAmRight

(4,883 posts)
11. Einstein "we can only make tentative deductions"
Mon Oct 26, 2015, 02:05 PM
Oct 2015

right? wrong? Not really a good way to view the situation. The mystery at this level may resolve when someone is gifted with a new way of describing reality.

Was Newton wrong?

DhhD

(4,695 posts)
14. Does this theory support the prevention of the merging of, neighbor Universes or
Thu Oct 29, 2015, 09:40 AM
Oct 2015

crystal of Universes? How about specific spooky center of gravitation force, particles?

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
15. the kaon oscillation mystery
Thu Oct 29, 2015, 10:36 AM
Oct 2015

While quantum mechanics is by now a well-established theory, it nonetheless still fascinates both newcomers and experts alike with unusual phenomena. The paradox of Schrödinger’s cat and the subtleties of the two-slit interference are timeless classics. Another less-familiar quantum effect, the oscillations of neutral mesons (bound states of a quark and an antiquark), has also intrigued legions of physicists for nearly sixty years [1].

These mesons oscillate back and forth between particle and antiparticle states.



https://physics.aps.org/articles/v6/26
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