Science
Related: About this forumWhat if the universe had no beginning?
By Paul Sutter about 14 hours ago
(Image credit: Shutterstock)
In the beginning, there was
well, maybe there was no beginning. Perhaps our universe has always existed and a new theory of quantum gravity reveals how that could work.
"Reality has so many things that most people would associate with sci-fi or even fantasy," said Bruno Bento, a physicist who studies the nature of time at the University of Liverpool in the U.K.
In his work, he employed a new theory of quantum gravity, called causal set theory, in which space and time are broken down into discrete chunks of space-time. At some level, there's a fundamental unit of space-time, according to this theory.
Bento and his collaborators used this causal-set approach to explore the beginning of the universe. They found that it's possible that the universe had no beginning that it has always existed into the infinite past and only recently evolved into what we call the Big Bang.
More:
https://www.livescience.com/universe-had-no-beginning-time
OAITW r.2.0
(24,300 posts)Damn.
getagrip_already
(14,646 posts)Quanto Magnus
(891 posts)heat death of the universe.
As space continues to expand our finite amount of matter will get further spread out. Regular stars die, neutron stars go cold. black holes evaporate....
Then there's the whole discussion of whether protons decay or not and how that affects the cooling of the universe.
jaxexpat
(6,804 posts)Endless, eternal, infinite. Time is a poor gauge of reality. All that is, has been and will be is now. The wrapping is part and parcel of the gift until it's opened, defined, deduced and disproven, again. The living know life as a passage of barely dreamed moments which disappear into memory. Awareness, transcendence, illusions of spatiality. There is no righteous one, not even one.
Anon-C
(3,430 posts)JoeOtterbein
(7,699 posts)Baked Potato
(7,733 posts)Wait, darn it, there never was nothing? Ok, back to GD.
airplaneman
(1,239 posts)elleng
(130,751 posts)Bluethroughu
(5,141 posts)rsdsharp
(9,143 posts)Sorry, John.
Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)
left-of-center2012 This message was self-deleted by its author.
TlalocW
(15,374 posts)Leading questions as you're assuming a creator.
TlalocW
Response to TlalocW (Reply #12)
left-of-center2012 This message was self-deleted by its author.
COL Mustard
(5,871 posts)Where did the first matter come from? How did it develop into the first life, and then into the first intelligent life (excluding Mango45 and his ilk). Some things are unknown and unknowable, and sometimes I'm glad I'm just along for the ride.
Farmer-Rick
(10,140 posts)They are theorizing there is NO beginning to the universe. It always existed. Matter comes with the universe as it evolves. Life evolves from the conditions created by the universe. Then intelligence evolves from that.
I think it is amazing that out of this turmulus universe something evolved that can understand the universe....well eventually understand it. It's like the universe created a creature to understand it's own existance. As if a rock created an ant that could understand the rock. That just is dumbfounding and so spectacular.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)Your assumption indicates the paradox. Why does the first matter have to COME FROM something. Isn't THAT first? And what did that come from?
Why wouldn't eternity work in both directions?
WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)is formed from karma/desire
Sibelius Fan
(24,393 posts)marble falls
(57,013 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,866 posts)Once there was nothing. Suddenly, it exploded into everything.
C Moon
(12,209 posts)Javaman
(62,504 posts)to completely appreciate.
we still think in linear terms.
if there were no beginning and end and the universe just "is", that confirms that the concept of time is merely a construct of our minds to wrap our brains around things like this.
once we evolve to a point where time no longer has meaning or even matters, then we will full conceptualize the "concept" of no beginning and end.
that all is happening at the same time.
COL Mustard
(5,871 posts)Don't you dare be late on your mortgage or car payments!!! . You know the old joke, if you think no one knows you exist, miss a couple of payments!!!
billh58
(6,635 posts)keeps everything from happening at once...
- Woody Allen, Albert Einstein, John Archibald Wheeler, and Anonymous
Javaman
(62,504 posts)If we ever evolve to a state of time happening all at once, our minds will I understand it, hence evolution
If we currently believe that time prevents everything happening at once, that just proves we cant conceptualize how our evolution will be to handle such at concept. We havent evolved to even comprehend it yet.
Stardust
(3,894 posts)BigmanPigman
(51,567 posts)Near Death Experiences lately and this fits right. Some who have "crossed over" and came back said that there is no time at all. People on Earth have a hard time understanding it. They all say the same thing about their NDE...time doesn't really exist.
I have to be reminded about Shakespeare's quote, "There is more between Heaven and Earth Horatio...".
I know that we have a limited amount of tools to study this issue. Actually none of our current tools available could really understand this. I doubt we will be able to comprehend any of this for thousands of years, or maybe even longer.
Question are we even here?
Javaman
(62,504 posts)that we are living in a simulation, as some have suggested. Which then dovetails into the idea of the many worlds or multi-universe hypothesis.
This is truly brain bending stuff.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,816 posts)I am currently reading Sutter's book How to Die in Space and it's a hoot. He has a wonderful, almost snarky way of presenting things, and I keep on laughing out loud. Plus, early on he talked about the asteroid belt and so I sent him an email asking if the materials in the asteroid belt had gotten together to become a planet, would it be naked eye visible? He responded within a couple of hours (and that alone is fantastic) that no, Ceres itself is more than half of the matter in the asteroid belt, and all of the rest of the asteroids would have made a very small planet, not naked eye invisible.
He is an amazing and interesting guy.
I have asked My Son The Astronomer if he'd crossed paths with Sutter, but alas he has not. Darn. I'd love to meet that man in person.
I do have his first book, Your Place in the Universe which I will get to once I'm done with How to Die in Space. I will add that How to Die in Space is so packed with information, that I've been taking it rather slowly. Never took physics, never took math beyond a business based calculus, although I constantly ask My Son The Astronomer many questions.
I love this stuff.
SergeStorms
(19,187 posts)that no god created it? That certainly would piss off religious folks. 🙄
Demobrat
(8,961 posts)who created god?
Javaman
(62,504 posts)LOL
wnylib
(21,346 posts)with no beginning and no end.
judesedit
(4,437 posts)Comforting to me. This puts me in mind of "Desiderata". I think I'll go read it. Peace and love to all of you. Thanx for being here.
wnylib
(21,346 posts)same things, in different ways. Carl Sagan pointed that out in his book, Dragons of Eden.
The human mind is incapable of complete objectivity. We start developing frameworks of perception from the time we are born and our experiences throughout life build on them. So despite all our efforts to maintain objectivity, our subjective experiences creep in. It may be that the human mind is hard wired to perceive things in certain patterns, as Jung pointed out regarding a collective unconscious.
So scientists do extremely well with objectivity despite, or maybe in cooperation with, our inescapable subjectivity. Modern technology in all fields is evidence of scientific success. But when it comes to developing theories from scientific evidence, science can overlap with some aspects of religious theology.
It's been a long time since I read Dragons of Eden, but if I remember right, he drew parallels in thought patterns and conceptualization between the order of creation in Genesis and the orders of beginnings and evolution in science. The parallels are not identical in every aspect, but are remarkably similar.
As a child In Sunday School, I was taught that God is not a person or being as we conceive of beings, but is a spirit that always was and always will be, without beginning or end. Now some physicists are describing the universe that way.
samnsara
(17,606 posts)NotANeocon
(423 posts)Woodwizard
(837 posts)olegramps
(8,200 posts)LudwigPastorius
(9,110 posts)space-time?
Yeah, that worked out for atoms, then protons and neutrons, then quarks, then strings, then...
I know, that's a bad analogy, but it seems like every time we humans think we've defined a fundamental building block, we later learn that it is made of something else.
This theory sounds like mathematicians rearranging numbers just to do away with singularities.
I personally don't have anything against singularities. They make more sense to me than time stretching in both directions with no beginning or end.
NH Ethylene
(30,803 posts)There is a lot of evidence to support it, even as we have attained more powerful telescopes and look farther 'back in time.'
It will be interesting to see what the author's peers say about this.
slightlv
(2,769 posts)was a space holder when you didn't know what the real concept actually was. That there wasn't actually anything such as "infinite." Am I way off base with this belief? If so, I've sure carried it around a LONG time. Someone enlighten me! It's midnight, and I really don't want to do a google search. I've got a couple of cracked ribs and I'm really ready to take a pain pill and head to bed. And I truly have thought there was no such reality as "infinite" anything. (shrug)
Buckeye_Democrat
(14,852 posts)... within black holes are "infinitely dense".
I have my doubts, despite the argument that no KNOWN force can withstand the collapse from gravity once the process of black hole creation starts.
VWolf
(3,944 posts)so too will a new theory "replace" GR, once someone clever enough comes up with it, and that will most likely clear up the singularities.
I put "replace" in quotes, as "refine" is probably more appropriate. Every theory has its appropriate domain of validity.
COL Mustard
(5,871 posts)But he's married.
I'll show myself out now.....
reACTIONary
(5,768 posts)Walleye
(30,984 posts)The fact that we dont understand it and cant resolve it is irrelevant. Just my philosophy of course
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)ancianita
(35,943 posts)Moebym
(989 posts)My favorite theory on the origins of the Universe is that it is cyclic, meaning that it's in an endless cycle of Big Bangs and Big Crunches.
It's my favorite not because I think it's the most plausible (I'm no astrophysicist) but because I like the idea of there being neither a beginning nor an end to the Universe. The alternative is too frightening to contemplate.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)What I tend to lean towards is that over a very long amount of time after a Big Freeze, you can get a new Big Bang since effectively the universe is massless and nothing but energy at that point and you get that once in a googol years fluctuation and boom, another Big Bang.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
Which means the universe is effectively eternal. Because sooner or later (much later) anything that can happen, will happen, including another Big Bang.
I also tend to think Black Holes spit out baby universes.
LudwigPastorius
(9,110 posts)Yikes!
That means that it is likely that you are a Boltzmann Brain, with a false memory of having a body and posting on DemocraticUnderground.com, When, in fact, you are a second away from dying in the freezing, dark emptiness of a dead universe.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)hasn't been enough time for that yet.
Esra Star
(2,166 posts)slightlv
(2,769 posts)An ever expanding universe is finally swallowed by a black hole and spit out into various "new universes" (ala new "big bangs" . I don't have the science down pat yet. And as someone has said on this thread, it makes my brain hurt! (LOL) But I LOVE the idea of the multiverse, and find it makes much more sense to me than the idea of a single universe, as does the idea of a one of these universes bumping into another universe, a piece of which becoming absorbed into the universe into which it bumped, thus showing up in the 2nd's background radiation pattern. Meanwhile, a new baby universe is created which is made of the two universes which bumped into each other.
There are so many possibilities out there beyond "In the beginning..." And I love contemplating each of them... even if they do make my brain hurt! (lol) The only thing I can't do right now is actually laugh out loud about them, cause that makes my cracked ribs hurt!
Moebym
(989 posts)qazplm135
(7,447 posts)1. Higgs field collapses. If Higgs field is real, and if it collapses as the density of space gets super tiny, then the universe will be in a hot dense state...just like the Big Bang. Basically Roger Penrose's theory (kinda sorta).
2. We could be in a false vacuum, and if it collapses late in the life of the universe it could produce a whole new universe. Although probably happens a lot sooner than heat death time frames.
3. Something else. Maybe Brane theory is correct where Branes are attracted as they empty out of matter and then when they collide a Big Bang happens. The universes fill with matter, the Branes are repulsed, and then entropy happens, emptying the universe of matter and bringing the Branes together again.
Silver Gaia
(4,541 posts)NullTuples
(6,017 posts)...that our observations are just nearsighted views of something so much larger.
My favorite example: What if the expansion we measure is just the trough of a pressure wave so massive it's entirety is far beyond what we can measure? These are fanciful alternatives that can't be proved or disproved, much as Georges Lemaître's theory fits much of the measured data but we cannot yet and perhaps will never know if it is the only suitable answer. But the math fits both. It falls back to the knowability of Plato's & Aristotle's god.
Personally, I find the idea of a universe that is finite in time or dimension to be offensive. It's modeled too much after ourselves. I would much rather prefer something more outside our experience and currently beyond our comprehension. Something that would push us to grow.
Joinfortmill
(14,395 posts)renate
(13,776 posts)Thank you!
Wounded Bear
(58,604 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,298 posts)Thanks for the thread Judi Lynn.
dupagelib
(142 posts)Entropy
The big freeze.
lastlib
(23,163 posts)Moody Blues, Eternity Road
JohnnyRingo
(18,619 posts)ashredux
(2,599 posts)🙏
JohnnyRingo
(18,619 posts)My mother told me when I was young that the universe went on forever. I would ask "what's beyond that?" "More universe".
We see a universe that is expanding from The Big Bang, yet we also see galaxies created by that Big Bang collapsing into massive black holes. What if those masses eat up entire galaxies and attract other nearby systems into an even more massive black hole until everything in the observed universe comes down to one or more unstable masses with atoms crushed beyond physical limits until.... Bang! It all starts again.
No beginning or end, just as it should be.
alfredo
(60,071 posts)burrowowl
(17,632 posts)Since I was 7 this stuff has always blown my mind.
cstanleytech
(26,243 posts)away via telescopes.
Unless of course the universe is composed of an infinite number of giant singularities spread out and the current universe is simply the expanding cloud like effect of two of them merging and releasing at least part of themselves.
As for why we do not see other such universes? Well the "front" of the expansion I suppose could have pushed any such other clouds back so we cannot see them.
hunter
(38,303 posts)Wherever you might go in the infinity of space-time, even by fantastical means, it all looks the same.
llashram
(6,265 posts)NotANeocon
(423 posts)And what if - from a quantum view - those motions operated simultaneously in several planes ln non linear time?
Duppers
(28,117 posts)As everything in existence.
But according to some DUers, Bento's postulating religion because this cannot be empirically proven.
Down thread: https://www.democraticunderground.com/122878359
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)marvelous creation.
And a creation would assume a creator.
Sorry atheists, but Big Al was into determinism and thought Spinoza was at least as smart as he was.
At any rate, paradoxes of infinity have fascinated theoretical physicists since at least since Plato, and these days no one is any closer to solving them. But not for lack of trying. Must be hundreds of physicists trying make a buck off of explaining this stuff in their videos.
Personally, I think it's simply that we are unable to comprehend things outside of our 3D reality. Time is merely motion in a fourth dimension, and distances are higher dimensional expressions of that motion. Or something like that.
But we can't really know because we are not as smart as we think we are.
Martin68
(22,768 posts)snort
(2,334 posts)all the way down.
Martin68
(22,768 posts)by confirmed by scientific tests that could bring into doubt the assumptions underlying the hypothesis.
Mustellus
(328 posts).. my dear Watson.. to theorize in advance of data. (S. Holmes.. paraphrased)
That's why cosmology is actually a branch of religion.
(Professional PhD Astronomer in my real life)
Dystopian Optimist
(76 posts)But I started creating it on a Tuesday, not Sunday.
Javaman
(62,504 posts)and during our lives we try and figure out how and why we are here to give meaning to the unknown.
KPN
(15,637 posts)the scientific theory behind no beginning, but I have always thought that might be the case. It just makes more sense to me than a start and an end, before which and beyond which there was and is absolutely nothing.
nelsonarcherdd31
(11 posts)check out the website for more information about this
https://www.livescience.com/universe-had-no-beginning-time
LiberalFighter
(50,789 posts)How long will earth survive when resources are depleted for human survival?
Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)And if I allow myself to think about it, Ill have a panic/anxiety attack.
Have since I was kid lying on the green grass on the front lawn of the home I grew up in, contemplating whats beyond the clouds and blue sky
..a brick wall came to mind but then what was beyond the wall? My dad would settle me down, usually by holding and talking calmly to me reassuring me that my thoughts were valid and he wondered the same.
Still creeps me out
.