Atheists & Agnostics
Related: About this forumChristianity’s faith-based freakout: Why atheism makes believers so uncomfortable
It seems backward. Believers are always telling atheists that we need religion for morality; that we have to believe because without religion, people would have no reason not to murder and steal and lie. And yet, all too often, they ask us to lie. When atheists come out of the closet and tell the people in our lives that we don’t believe in God, all too often the reaction is to try to shove us back in.
In some cases, they simply want us to keep our mouths shut: when the topic of religion comes up, they want us to tell the lie of omission. But much of the time, they actually ask us to lie outright. They ask us to lie to other family members. They ask us to attend church or other religious services. They sometimes even ask us to perform important religious rituals, like funerals or confirmations, where we’re not just lying to the people around us, but to the god they supposedly believe in.
Why would they do this?
....
Religion relies on social consent to perpetuate itself. But the simple act of coming out as an atheist denies it this consent. Even if atheists never debate believers or try to persuade them out of their beliefs; even if all we ever do is say out loud, “Actually, I’m an atheist,” we’re still denying our consent. And that throws a monkey wrench into religion’s engine.
Much more on a familiar read
My story is similar to some of the stories here. I thought I was done with that crap decades ago... until my current job where some of my coworkers are very anti-atheist.
Did you or do you go through this?
I still attend church events out of respect when invited. I just sit/stand there while everyone does there thing. At funerals I just walk by the casket while most people kneel and pray.
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Warpy
(111,124 posts)The only way it can be sustained is if everybody else nods sagely and agrees with it. Anyone who pipes up and points out what a load of donkey bollocks it is makes the faithful extremely nervous.
We should be grateful that they only shun us and refuse to vote for us. They used to burn anyone who questioned any part of the rubbish at the stake.
Women atheists have to be especially circumspect because nothing is more threatening than a woman who is not tamed and oppressed by sexist religious hooey.
I out myself when and where I feel it's safe. Otherwise, I do stay in that "I'm not religious" closet. While I think sensible people know what that means, they're also sensible enough not to question me about it. They know they wouldn't like any of the answers.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)And great deal of energy...
rituals, meetings, money....
Not to mention the mental gymnastics to keep reality at bay.
No wonder they get all upset when you confirm what they know deep down inside..... that magic and ancient superstition is not real. Or that all that antique stuff has some kind of authority over them, but not over you.
Then there's fear of being ostracized.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Like Dinesh D'Souza, now caught in indictments for campaign finance felony activity, so-caught by allegations from his married mistress, much to the chagrin of his own wife.
Can't make this shit up folks.
Heather MC
(8,084 posts)Makes my ovaries shrivel up and die
Arkansas Granny
(31,506 posts)My family knows and a few close friends. Other than that, I just don't discuss it. I don't go to church functions, but if a prayer is said in my presence, I just sit or stand quietly with my head bowed. Some of my co-workers are regular church goers, but they don't preach at work. I figure if their faith gives them some comfort, that's fine with me as long as they don't try to involve me or force their beliefs on others.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)I let people know about my atheism when they make some sort of religious reference in my direction. If they shove their religion in my face, I shove my atheism in their's. I refuse to go to church events. If I went, that would make me a hypocrite, and unlike many xtians, I'm not a hypocrite.
Like I said before, I'm so atheist I make Richard Dawkins look like Pope Francis. And I'm not afraid to let people know that.
TxDemChem
(1,918 posts)She told me not to tell anyone at work. I told her that I refuse. In 5 years, I knew what my entire team's religious affiliations were and what churches they attended. They had no idea I was an atheist during all that time - it never came up.
I ended up finding 3 more atheists in the building and a lot more questioning people.
I guess if your job or relationships depend on these people, you may want to keep quiet. But if not and the subject comes up AND you feel comfortable, you should be able to come out to them.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)I am knows as the pain-in-the-ass non-conformer who will always speak my mind. So most people are not shocked or surprised to know that I am an atheist. Everyone at work knows that I am an atheist, and most of them just say that they don't believe it---that I am just trying to be contrary but that secretly I do believe in god. That is as bad as it gets for me, so it is possible to live with it.
My boss makes me laugh about it, since he is in total denial and often initiates conversations about my lack of belief that he doesn't believe. He is a funny man, with a picture of the pope on his wall of the office and a huge painting of the Virgin Mary behind his desk. He kisses the painting every night before he leaves. He buys flower arrangements for the church every day. He is a true believer. And I know that he is unsettled by my atheism, since he cannot believe that a decent person can not believe in god....which is why he just refuses to accept it. But I have never waivered. And I just have to chuckle.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)I get that a lot because I love, love, love Bach Cantatas and I find Hinduism fascinating....
....so I'm really a Lutheran Hindu.... I guess 
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)It has to be when I am totally unconscious. No one can believe that I do not believe when it is so apparent that there is a god.
A Lutheran Hindu! 
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Ein feste burg ist user Gott
Hare Christ-na! Namaste!
stone space
(6,498 posts)My boss makes me laugh about it, since he is in total denial and often initiates conversations about my lack of belief that he doesn't believe.
Laughter is probably the best response, but it can be annoying.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)You have not engaged in that discussion. Don't fault those that want to have the discussion you won't engage in.
stone space
(6,498 posts)In my experience, there's about as much to be gained from arguing about my atheism as there is to be gained from arguing about what my favorite color is.
If somebody asks me what my favorite color is, I'm perfectly willing to tell them, but if they try to argue with me about it, the best response probably is laughter.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)You use words and phrases and arguments that most atheists don't. You use those things and our spidey sense tingles. Many, including myself, have tried to have that conversation with you. You brush it off and give us a mildly humorous video in response. The fact that that doesn't calm my spidey sense shouldn't be a surprise to you.
Maybe there is a cultural difference. Maybe there is a relative newness to your atheism. There are many things that have been suggested. People have been trying to figure you and it out. You are new here and people have tried.
Don't talk about. Or do. I don't care. But if you don't, then don't expect people to just stop thinking what they are.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Maybe it's a generational thingie?
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)is similar to racism and sexism. If someone went on the feminism board and used the word "hysteric" when they were talking about how much of a feminist they are, what do you think would happen?
I'm not saying you need to be assimilated (though you won't get invited to the Christian baby meals until you do), but I'm trying to help you understand why it hasn't been an open arms welcome for you here. Like most sub groups on the bottom of the privilege rankings, we are a little gun shy. I would think you would understand that. Though maybe you don't live in an area, like many of us do, where you atheism is something you need to hide for fear of repercussions.
stone space
(6,498 posts)...atheists "dishonest" and rubbing salt in the wound with bigoted garbage like "the truth hurts", I suppose.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)It is like using phrases that the oppressed group have made clear are offensive and someone who says they are part of the oppressed group continues to use. It sets off alarms. Nice try, though.
And if you don't think horrible things have been said about atheists here, it is because you haven't been around that long.
And if you are being honest with yourself, you would realize that dishonest =! intellectually dishonest. You have a math background
and should be able to distance yourself to that level.
And it is that level of lecturing and corrective attitude that is going to get you in trouble here. Not that you can't discuss things that atheists do that are wrong, but that passive aggressive shit doesn't sit well.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Your analogy would carry weight if someone went to Interfaith or another believe safe haven and posted that stuff. But nobody did. Religion is a free-for-all group. And, again, you care coming across very bold for someone who has been here less than a month. You don't even understand the purpose of the groups nor do you seem to understand what safe havens are and which groups are safe havens but you very boldly chastise us based on incorrect perceptions.
Slow you roll, friend.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)It would be like somebody going to an atheist website and calling the family members of...
...atheists "dishonest" and rubbing salt in the wound with bigoted garbage like "the truth hurts", I suppose.
If someone went on the feminism board and used the word "hysteric" when they were talking about how much of a feminist they are, what do you think would happen?
stone space
(6,498 posts)...atheists "dishonest" and rubbing salt in the wound with bigoted garbage like "the truth hurts", I suppose.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)discussion in Religion about dishonesty?
Are you being deliberately obtuse? You seemed to be making a point through analogy and I was pointing out the flaw in that analogy. If you weren't, then you need to explain what point you were trying to make.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Nobody is saying you are coming in here being deliberately and overtly insulting. You are using phrases and examples and talking points that sound an awful lot like those that come from those outside the atheist community directed toward us. Like the "hysterical" example I used from the world of feminism.
LostOne4Ever
(9,286 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)but he has indicated it is about people coming into an atheist site and calling atheists dishonest which that thread doesn't do.
I have no idea what he is getting at, really. And I have rough drafts of high school research papers to read tonight so I don't have the brain power to spare trying to figure it out.
LostOne4Ever
(9,286 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,286 posts)While I believe you are referring to Warrens thread.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)People in other offices get the giggles over my belly laughs when I am talking to my boss about religion. There really isn't a lot else I can do, but it does lighten the mood. Pissing off the boss isn't a good option.
stone space
(6,498 posts) rvt1000rr
(40 posts)I have formed a pact with society in general and Christians in particular: If you don't try to convert me or similarly force you beliefs upon me, I won't take the opportunity to point out how pathetically delusional you are.
Works, maybe, 90% of the time.
De Leonist
(225 posts)There are some of us who don't see religion and science or belief in gods as being contradictory and quite frankly see attempts by some Atheists or Anti-Theists to "deconvert" us as being just as asinine and condescending as when a Fundie attempts to use "Biblical Logic" to convert us. Take us Modern Pagans for instance, there are quite a few who view the Natural Forces as Gods of a sort. Perhaps not in a literal sense but these are still forces that are larger than us that physically impact our world and ourselves. Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. A few years back I was witness to what was quite possibly one of the most intense and at the same time dangerously beautiful displays of Lightning and Thunder I had ever seen. Afterward all I could think was how I had seen Thor that night. Now do I believe it was the Literal Thor ? No of course not. But in the Myths Thor is at times depicted as a wild and overwhelming force. Much like storm I had witnessed that night. Perhaps to some it's just empty symbolism. But here's the thing it's not empty to me and at the end of the day that's all that really matters. The fact is any spirituality worth the name is one that is often tremendously personal. How they choose to shape and give meaning to it is entirely up to the individual or group. Also no it need not be a lie, a delusion(Can I just say here that I think calling religion a delusion is also fucking asinine. I know people who actually suffer from delusions brought about by mental illness. These people do not have choice in the matter. A person can choose whether or not to be religious.) or magical thinking. It can be rational, deeply personal, and ultimately true for that person. True how you may ask ? In all sorts of different ways, literally, emotionally, philosophically, symbolically, metaphorically, etc. Even if believing in Gods of any sort goes the way of the dodo Humanity can still have spirituality and no need it not be based on half-truths or fairy tales. Why some with in a group that often claims to know more about religion than us poor deluded believers fail to realize this is beyond me.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)And I think you meant to post this non-sequitor somewhere else.
Gore1FL
(21,095 posts)I can trust in gravity without having to worship it.
People can be deluded about numerous things. Just because you might find examples worse than others, it doesn't change the definition.
Here is Webster. 2a seems to fit nicely:
1
: the act of deluding : the state of being deluded
2
a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated
b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delusion
1. Let me make this clear, I do not actually deify thunder. For me it's more a matter of symbolism and Archetypes. Of all the Myths I have read I have found no better possible personification of Thunder and Lightning than Thor. A wild, intense, and at times an absolutely unstoppable force of nature.
2. Yes I realize that technically speaking one can apply the concept of delusion to religion. I've heard that argument more times than I care to count and still think it's fucking asinine. Now look am I going to physically attempt to stop someone from saying it or try to convince them verbally ? No I'm not. As much as it drives me up the wall I recognize that people have a right to say it.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)I think it slightly misses the mark. I do however apply the term "magical thinking" because it is a perfect fit in the case of most believers.
It's quite one thing to believe in the incredibky awesome forces of nature, for instance. I have certainly witnesses plenty of it living in northern MI. This is incredible power but (here's where it gets magical) no one can control it through ritual nor can benefit from worshipping it.
Many believers are convinced there is an omnipotent being watching them every moment and, out of all the needs in the world, this being might magical grant their wish submitted via worship and prayer,
I daresay this epitomizes not only magical thinking but also reveals seriously self-centered world view.WeCan talk about that last bit another time perhaps. 
Julie
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)The egomaniacal aspect of religion is amazing...n'est pas?
All why whining that "scientists think they know everything!"
Jeezie-creezie guys....just because I "get" evolution does not make me think I know "everything".
But thinking that the Universe...99.99999% of which you cannot survive in.... or the Earth....75% of which is covered with water you cannot survive in much less drink... was made for your sorry ass is just fine!.... not egomaniacal or freakin' NUTS!
Religions are so small minded. It's made up by mankind and for mankind at a very ignorant time in our history. It's just obsolete today....certainly for explaining the "how" of anything.
nil desperandum
(654 posts)I think you are on point here, for me the threat to believers that non-believers pose is a fundamental strike at their own sense of superiority.
The idea that believers were created by a god who watches their every move must mean they are very special and important. The books their god left for them tell them how special they are and how important it is to their creator that they worship their creator and follow his rules so they won't have to worry about being dead, as they will be reborn and live in all eternity in a peaceful bliss with all their dead relatives.
Contrast that with the concept that our existence is an absolutely meaningless accident of cosmic chemistry that caused our ancestors to crawl out of a primordial slime to emerge as the planet's most efficient killers and apex predators and I can see why that might clash with the good god fearing folk.
Heathens telling them that their fairy tales are in fact fairy tales and the evidence supports the primordial soup/slime theory and it renders a lot of their world view without purpose.
Of course that's just me I could be wrong, and I most likely am incorrect.
Gore1FL
(21,095 posts)Certainly aspects of, if not all of that surrounds us is majestic and inspiring. It may give illusion to or a sense of a person, as you suggest with your Thor example. I'm all for symbolism, crisp use of language, and imagined imagery to behold it.
But you know, as I do, that while thinking about thunder in this way is interesting, amusing, thought-provoking, etc., it doesn't really go anywhere to explain the truth about. I'd argue, that the story of the electricity that it is actually made of, and the physical reasons it rides through the sky as if it were alive or emotional can tell a story at least as equal in it's splendor.
A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. That sums up pretty much any religion that I am aware of. What part makes it asinine?
De Leonist
(225 posts)Last edited Thu May 1, 2014, 03:29 PM - Edit history (1)
"I can't equate anthropomorphizing nature with religion"
That's fine by but others choose to do so for whatever reason and for them it's spiritually fulfilling, and again not necessarily untrue. Though perhaps not in a literal sense.
"A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. That sums up pretty much any religion that I am aware of."
Religion, Philosophy and Spirituality is something that in my opinion is ultimately defined by the individual as it is quite frankly a mostly personal matter. Though I don't deny that it can have an important communal aspect to it. Because of this Religion and Spirituality can and do come in numerous forms. Some of them maybe less true than others but to call them all delusional just seems like it marginalizes and glosses over the incredibly diverse reasons that people identify as religious to begin with IMHO. But than I guess I suppose that's because my view on religion tends to be influenced far more by Non-Western Ideas of religion as it was just not a thing in my family outside of Norse Myths as bed time stories and the occasional reference to heaven when a relative died. The biggest influence on me with regards to religion was a Maternal GrandMother who came out of the Beatnik generation and was really big into Dharmic Religions like Hinduism and was a big fan of Indian Gurus like Sai Baba and 19th century spiritualists like Edgar Gayce. Come to think of it I didn't really read the bible until I was in middle school.
"What part makes it asinine?"
Perhaps it isn't to you and I again say that I realize that the term can be applied to religion and not be incorrect from a certain standpoint. But why I find it asinine is the majority of people who actually suffer from delusions do so because of Neurological Disorders that they were either born with or developed because of indescribably horrific experiences. Perhaps this opinion is irrational on my part but when you've seen a number of people like I have who quite literally fight to hang on to their sanity because of delusions that they have no control over calling religion delusional just seems completely and utterly asinine. You can call Christianity stupid, wrong, sexist, outdated, etc and I won't bat an eyelash. Hell someone can bash the shit out of my own religious identification as an Agnostic Asatruar and I personally won't give a fuck.
But to me it seems asinine to call something as widespread and as important a part of almost every single human culture that exists or has existed as religion delusional. Especially when for the majority of religious people it is not only not harmful but also life-affirming. Now does any of this actually have any effect on it's truth value? No of course not. Now I don't deny that individuals can use religion to delude themselves in ways that are harmful to themselves and others. But that's not the majority. Also to call the religious beliefs of people who for the most part are not violent or otherwise socially harmful delusional just seems unnecessarily inflammatory.
Now having said all that again as much as I may disagree with it if people want to keep doing it that is up them and it's not my place to attempt to stop them. Though I have just as much right to call it as I see it just like they have the right to call it as they see it.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)But to me it seems asinine to call something as widespread and as important a part of almost every single human culture that exists or has existed as religion delusional. Especially when for the majority of religious people it is not only not harmful but also life-affirming.
My view is that on balance religion around the world is an impediment to progress, is a barrier to equal rights for all, and is a tool used by governments and the elites who control those governments to retain their hold on power. If in general religion wasn't also a set of ridiculous obsolete and delusional beliefs, if it had some truth to it that was unique to religious belief systems, it might just need to be reformed, but the modernist believers have tried that, and that effort has demonstrably failed, and there really is nothing valid that religion contributes that is unique to religion.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Well I can.
I think that's how the whole mess started.... that and some smart enterprising cave man realized how he could use such a thing to gain power over people.
Religion is just ancient government.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)yes one can. And even worse, the DSM has a very hard time trying to find a precise way of defining religious beliefs out of their definition of a delusion. That would be because many religious beliefs are indistinguishable from delusions. So this "technically speaking one can apply the concept of delusion to religion" but doing so is "fucking asinine" is just more special pleading from the religionists. Their delusions must not be called delusions, even when they obviously are.
De Leonist
(225 posts)I'm not pleading shit I'm rather expressing my view point on about something that bugs the ever living shit out of me. Let me make something clear to you despite how I choose to identify religiously I am not a religionist in the way you seem to think I am. I choose to identify so because as other atheists and agnostics have pointed out it seems pointless to me label oneself based on something that I don't believe in. So I choose not to label myself as just an Agnostic. I choose my label because as far mythologies go Norse Mythology is the one I find to be the most fascinating and inspiring, always have. Also it's part my upbringing since I come from a family that is Norwegian-American in ancestry and culture. Now do I actually believe that it reflects the reality ? Again of course not.
Now that particular pet peeve has little to with whether or not people bash religious beliefs(One of my favorite things to call Christianity is Draugrtru. A Draugr being a zombie or undead of sorts and tru meaning belief in or loyalty to) in general but rather TO ME (and this is the key term here) it sounds asinine because there is a choice in whether or not someone believes that the almighty Zombie Christ returns to earth someday (Personally I'd much rather see Baldr come to back to life sounds like he's a lot more fun than Jeebus the Draugr) while there are large numbers of people out there who suffer from delusions they have no choice in. Which includes a number of people I've known in my life. I suppose the experience of seeing with my own eyes just how much people like that actually do suffer has kind of given me little patience for people who aren't mental health professionals to stamp vast swathes of people they've never meant with the label delusional. Regardless of whether how true or appropriate they think it is.
I realize you might find that to be "pleading". I find it to be just me expressing my frustration with what I see as people throwing around a medical term far too casually. Now maybe that's more "pleading" but when you've seen a very close and dear friend cowering in the corner who is so tense and trembling so hard your afraid he's going to give himself a heart attack because of schizophrenic delusions he cannot control. Than yeah, that can change your perception a great deal on a number things not the least of which is how people should use terms like delusional more carefully. By the way, just to address a another comment of yours. Religion actually can give a person a number of positive benefits. In fact if I remember correctly some studies actually do show that it can act as a coping mechanism for people dealing with depression, grief or various forms of emotional Trauma. Oh but than I suppose that's just a crutch to you huh ? I mean hey it's not like some people whether their suffering from various mental problems or not have practically non-existent support systems have to use what they can to get through the day.
Seriously all the snarky bullshit you may want to consider that life for a lot of people can get pretty rough and believing that there maybe someone who loves you unconditionally can help a lot of people put one foot in front of the other on a day to day basis. Just because that belief is probably not true doesn't mean that it can not help people in the long term.Delusional or not. Another thing you may want to consider is not that every fucking objection to how Atheists talk about Believers is pleading or just a reaction to some fear that one day the almighty Atheism shall triumph over all Religious Delusion. Like I said I'm an Agnostic, granted of a religious sort, but still an Agnostic. If concrete proof of no gods of any kind under any definition what so ever existing is discovered tomorrow I won't lose sleep over it. What I specifically take issue with is the use of the word delusional by people who have no training what so ever in diagnosing or treating mental illness as a label for quite literally billions of people who simply choose not to believe what they believe. But than I suppose that's just more "pleading" isn't it.
Also don't lecture me on the DSM. I was reading the various editions of it up to that point back when most of my peers were still reading the first Harry Potter book. I've spent most of my life dealing with Mental Health Professionals of one sort or another. Not to mention people who ACTUALLY SUFFER FROM THEIR DELUSIONS. Which by the way according to every single Mental Health Professional I've ever put the question is THE defining aspect on whether or not a person's delusions should be viewed as negative or benign. As I've said in other posts yes the term delusion can be applied to religion and I acknowledge that.
But one of the main reasons most Psychiatrists and Psychologists don't like to apply the term delusion to peoples religious beliefs , and the main reason I don't, is because on a day to day basis it does not harm them and according to some studies can actually be beneficial at rough times in a persons life. Now I'm sure you'll with retort something about how incorrect beliefs harm people, yadda, yadda, yadda, delusional, yadda, religion hurts the world yadda, yadda, yadda, etc.
Now while I don't disagree that people use religion in a harmful way or that yes it would be better if more people would take up critical thinking and actually question things more. The fact is religion is what people make of it. That's not being politically correct either. That's actually making an observation based on the fact the despite how people may identify with what religion they usually end using it in a way that benefits them positively.
I find the main weak point in the Anti-Theistic approach to analysis of religion is a refusal to acknowledge or consider the countless nuanced ways in which people view and practice their religion. I also strongly suspect that among a number of Anti-Theists it is not just a deep philosophical disagreement with Theism but an irrational level of disdain for religion or religious people that quite frankly has little basis in logic or critical thinking. I suppose that comes across as ad hominem. But when it comes down to it my own experiences lead me to believe that a number aren't so much interested in a rational discussion so much as just bashing religion. Now that can be fun and cathartic I don't deny. Shit I do it myself, mostly though as tool to vent my frustrations with being an Agnostic in country where someone can not get elected to public office with out kissing God's ass. But I try not to let it define my approach to why I'm critical of the belief that we really know one way or the other.
Critical Thinking I would hope is what Non-Believers actually use to approach their philosophical disagreements with Theism and religion in general. But from what I've seen of your comments, you I'm not so sure about.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Which of course is patently absurd.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)so belief in both at this point IS contradictory. If scientific evidence surfaces that supports the existence of god/s, I will reassess that statement.
smartphone
(87 posts)about 99% of atheists.
De Leonist
(225 posts)The definition of what is or isn't a God has not always been consistent and has varied a great deal from culture to culture historically. If you are talking about the Judeo-Christian definition than we agree on this. I too find the idea of an all powerful, all-knowing, all present being that focuses specifically on earth and the human race to be highly unlikely. However for some cultures historically a God could be something as simple as a shared ancestor within the community that was more venerated and celebrated than worshipped. Much like many historical cultures, with in Modern paganism you will find a number of very diverse definitions of what a God is or isn't. I do not claim that they meet the scientific standard. However I do think the stance some take on this matter is missing the fact that in order to actually prove whether something actually exists or not one needs at the very least a concrete definition of some sort. Again what a God is or isn't has varied far more than I think we often give it credit for. Because of this I find the most logical stance one can take is agnosticism. Take that for you will.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)then in those cases there is no scientific evidence for that. If it's something that actually existed and is revered in hindsight, well, of course that's different. I guess I view nature as "my god" but I don't ascribe supernatual powers to it. The amazing diversity of life on this planet and the vastness and beauty of the universe itself is "awesome" to me in the true sense of the word, and I don't need to look for supernatural forces. But if solid evidence for supernatural occurrences surfaced, all bets are off.
Iggo
(47,534 posts)Most everybody in the extended family knows my status by now, and the ones that don't know it get told. (And that's pretty much the reason I only see 98% of these motherfuckers when someone dies.) I pay my respects then I'm out the door.
I'm not playing along anymore.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Their existence doesn't bother me at all.