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Curmudgeoness

(18,219 posts)
Thu Oct 16, 2014, 12:58 PM Oct 2014

Vatican alters draft report translation about gays.

I am shocked, I tell you, just shocked!!!!!


VATICAN CITY — The contentious debate over the Vatican's ground-breaking overture to gays has taken a new twist.

The Vatican on Thursday released a new English translation of the draft report of bishops debating family issues. The new translation significantly alters the section about gays, diminishing the welcoming tone from the original Italian.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vatican-alters-draft-report-translation-about-gays/ar-BB9qgYh
18 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Vatican alters draft report translation about gays. (Original Post) Curmudgeoness Oct 2014 OP
... LostOne4Ever Oct 2014 #1
My first thought was WTF. Curmudgeoness Oct 2014 #2
"Ha ha, suckers! For a minute there you thought we were moving out of the middle ages!" Arugula Latte Oct 2014 #3
The suckers may have thought that, Curmudgeoness Oct 2014 #4
Who could have possibly seen that coming? trotsky Oct 2014 #5
Related thread from yesterday. onager Oct 2014 #6
I did see the whole text posted Curmudgeoness Oct 2014 #7
Whenever the Church "pays special attention to the children" it's cause for worry. beam me up scottie Oct 2014 #8
That could be interpreted in a number of ways theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #9
Good analysis, thank you. onager Oct 2014 #10
If anyone had even the smallest doubt that the so-called "progress" was a pile of PR crap theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #11
"There will be no radicalization..." Curmudgeoness Oct 2014 #12
I think we should start holding the media accountable for sloppy journalism theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #13
Just so you know, Curmudgeoness Oct 2014 #14
Sorry -- I should have been more clear theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #15
Very troubling, since the Globe exposed previous scandals onager Oct 2014 #16
Speaking of the media... theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #17
Three cheers for John Sutter. Curmudgeoness Oct 2014 #18

LostOne4Ever

(9,286 posts)
1. ...
Thu Oct 16, 2014, 01:08 PM
Oct 2014


More and more proof keeps rolling in that Francisco is nothing more than the PR pope. No real reforms, no real action, just empty words to give false hope to those who desperately want this pope to be the liberal champion that he isn't.

He is just as much a homophobe as he was before becoming pope.

Curmudgeoness

(18,219 posts)
2. My first thought was WTF.
Thu Oct 16, 2014, 01:17 PM
Oct 2014

Then I realized that they wanted the original reports to be big news, and were hoping that this would be less than a blip in the media. Shrewd little buggers.

Curmudgeoness

(18,219 posts)
4. The suckers may have thought that,
Thu Oct 16, 2014, 01:27 PM
Oct 2014

but I was sure that there was a catch. I just never dreamed that this would be that catch.

onager

(9,356 posts)
6. Related thread from yesterday.
Thu Oct 16, 2014, 01:48 PM
Oct 2014

Posted by Act of Reparation, contains the whole draft of Reductio ad Absurdum or whatever it was called:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/123029738

Being straight with no rug-rats, I don't really have a dog (or god) in this particular fight I'm about to mention:

But I'd be very worried about the language in that thing concerning the children of gay couples:

52. ...Furthermore, the Church pays special attention to the children who live with couples of the same sex, emphasizing that the needs and rights of the little ones must always be given priority.

Also being a paranoid old curmudgeon whenever a religious group "pays special attention" to things, I would translate that as - "We will try to get these kids removed from the evil sinful homosexual household and placed in good Xian homes."

Different church, but that is exactly what's happening in Russia right now. The govt., with the backing of the Orthodox Church, can forcibly remove kids from their homes if they have gay parents.

Saw that in the HBO documentary "Hunted: The War Against Gays In Russia." Well worth watching.

Curmudgeoness

(18,219 posts)
7. I did see the whole text posted
Thu Oct 16, 2014, 02:14 PM
Oct 2014

although I just skimmed most of it. I did pay special attention to the section regarding the views on homosexuals and on "transmission of life". But it is my understanding that the translation that was used has been changed---or is the one posted yesterday the revised language? The language in the post yesterday seemed exactly the same as when this "seismic shift" was first announced.

Love your translation of the title of the report, which seems much more appropriate, at least in my eyes.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
8. Whenever the Church "pays special attention to the children" it's cause for worry.
Thu Oct 16, 2014, 02:24 PM
Oct 2014

Especially considering that not only did they allow priests to give their own special attention to kids, when it became a world wide scandal they suddenly decided they needed to change their precious policies in order to protect the pedophiles.

Funny how they prioritize like that.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
9. That could be interpreted in a number of ways
Thu Oct 16, 2014, 07:26 PM
Oct 2014

First of all, we do know that Catholic-affiliated adoption agencies do not allow adoptions to gay couples. In fact, some of them have shut down rather than comply with non-discrimination laws.

Two, there was some talk that they might allow the children of gay couples to be baptized into the church but not the parents. Now what kind of message does that send to a kid? God loves you but he thinks your parents are an abomination and are going to hell?

Third, the wording is very, very odd: "children who live with couples of the same sex" is certainly not the same as "children of same sex couples". I have no idea what to make of that. Consider that the church does not believe in in-vitro, artificial insemination, surrogacy et al so the status of that child in the eyes of the church is rather perplexing. Then there's the matter of gay couples who may have been in a previous heterosexual marriage, one in which there were children. Since the church does not recognize divorce, the only parents that would ever be recognized by the church are the Mr. and Mrs. of the heterosexual marriage. So the kids would simply be "living with" the gay couple.

To sum up, this is all so much bullshit.

onager

(9,356 posts)
10. Good analysis, thank you.
Thu Oct 16, 2014, 09:36 PM
Oct 2014

I hoped you'd weigh in with some insights. Have to agree with your conclusion - just "so much bullshit." As usual.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
11. If anyone had even the smallest doubt that the so-called "progress" was a pile of PR crap
Thu Oct 16, 2014, 10:14 PM
Oct 2014

This should erase any doubt. Parts of this video are highly offensive.

CNS video — Cardinal Pell: Synod says no to ‘secular agenda’



Why people (and the media) keep falling for this scam time after time is beyond me.

Curmudgeoness

(18,219 posts)
12. "There will be no radicalization..."
Fri Oct 17, 2014, 10:01 AM
Oct 2014

Like we didn't know that already. Everybody stop celebrating!!!!

I read somewhere that the wording of the report were disagreeable to two groups----the American and the African constituents. How often are we proud to be in the same category of the African continent? We always think that we are smarter, freer, and more progressive than those perceived backward countries. Ironic.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
13. I think we should start holding the media accountable for sloppy journalism
Fri Oct 17, 2014, 11:24 AM
Oct 2014

Just passing along press releases is not what I call journalism. Now that errant cat is out of the bag just as the PR firm knew it would be and once out, it's mighty damn hard to corral that cat again. Look at how they circulated that "Who am I to judge?" meme when the very next day it was pointed out that the quote had been widely circulated without the actual context, which pertained specifically to celibate, gay priests. How many fell for the story that the Pope was sneaking out of the Vatican at night to feed the homeless? The level of irresponsible journalism with regard to Francis is outrageous. Conversely, how many journalists have reported about the publication of the Pope's new book, which contains scathing comments about LGBTs? How about his recent, dismissive and offensive comments regarding the role of women in the church? How many have truly investigated what was going on in Argentina prior to his election?

On some level I can hold the desperate and hopeful parishioners minimally responsible for this travesty, if only for their role as apologists who insist on recirculating this carefully crafted sham even when confronted with the facts. They are personally invested in this fantasy Pope. But what of the media? What is their excuse? Make no mistake, I also hold the feet of the LGBT media to the fire and am still waiting not only for a retraction/apology from The Advocate but a published clarification from the HRC concerning their premature and inaccurate reports from the synod about LGBTs.

Indulging in the fantasy that the church has experienced some kind of seismic shift with regard to LGBTs is not only a lie but a dangerous one. While millions right here at home have become distracted by their trip through the make-believe land of smoke and mirrors, the USCCB has promised to double down on its efforts to persecute LGBTs (and women). Has even one lawsuit been withdrawn? Are LGBTs still getting fired from their jobs at Catholic-affiliated institutions? Has the flow of church money into anti-gay organizations and lobbying been cut off? Was Archbishop Cordileone discouraged from being a touted guest speaker at the "March for Marriage" organized by NOM, a recognized hate group? Can we name ONE THING that has changed? At each step of legal progress made for LGBT rights I have posted the response from the USCCB and I might as well have dropped them into a bottomless well. It's not like the media doesn't have the same resources I do -- the USCCB publishes each and every hateful screed right on their website.

Regarding the horrific (and spreading) anti-gay laws in many African nations, there were a number of LGBT DUers, bluenorthwest in particular who, even in the face of blistering personal attacks, kept posting about the church's involvement in the persecution of LGBTs in Nigeria and Uganda. Since the facts could not be refuted, some apologists expressed the hope & belief that Francis would recall these hatemongers or at the very least, instruct them to shut their mouths. Not only has this failed to materialize, the anti-gay laws of these countries are being touted as a model for the cancerous spread of LGBT persecution throughout Africa. These same bishops and archbishops at this moment can be found at the synod in discussions about the church and LGBTs.

I could go on, spurred by sheer frustration, but I'll call it in for this post.

Curmudgeoness

(18,219 posts)
14. Just so you know,
Fri Oct 17, 2014, 11:41 AM
Oct 2014

your posts regarding this have not dropped into a bottomless well. Many of us are reading and learning from them. I don't keep up with the details on most of the doings of any church, and welcome input from people like you to keep me from buying into any of the hype I get from the media.

And speaking of the media, I can blame them for a lot of the misinformation, but on this particular report, the blame lies squarely in the lap of the RCC. That "translation" that turned out to be "flawed" and had to be corrected came right out of the synod. The media should not have to read the original Italian or Latin (don't know what language they used on the original) and translate it themselves. This was, pure and simple, a ploy to get headlines regarding that "seismic shift". The media was only the vehicle of the RCC deceit. I expect a lot out of the media that they are not doing, but I would not expect them to do the translation when that was furnished by the RCC. I say it was intentional, and since I believe that, I also find it despicable. I don't know how they can live with themselves.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
15. Sorry -- I should have been more clear
Fri Oct 17, 2014, 01:01 PM
Oct 2014

When I mentioned posting the USCCB press releases on DU, I was referring to specific groups where this information would be most pertinent. It's as if people are afraid to respond (at least publicly), even when the issues are as critical as LGBT and reproductive rights. I find it maddening. It's also rather sad that I have to come to A&A to freely discuss these issues (at least without being burnt to a virtual crisp) and to find people who will engage them. That is not intended in the least as a slight but as a high compliment.

Regarding the "mistranslation", I concur. It was a deliberate move by a now-proven, slimy PR machine that's become quite adept at disseminating misinformation and no matter how many times they've been caught, there are still plenty of folks ready & willing to swill the next line of bull. Yet, you'd think the media would become a bit more skeptical after being burned for the umpteenth time. It seems they all want to grab the headline and truth be damned.

BTW, did you know that the Boston Globe has launched a new website, CRUX, a news site dedicated to the RCC? So now the Globe has become another part of the PR firm. I find that immensely troubling.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/09/11/panel-focuses-pope-francis-during-launch-new-boston-globe-catholic-website-crux/epbL3Tm3Ck1vcUfhJYOTvL/story.html

onager

(9,356 posts)
16. Very troubling, since the Globe exposed previous scandals
Fri Oct 17, 2014, 05:25 PM
Oct 2014

How The Boston Globe Uncovered the Abuse Scandal That Rocked The Catholic Church

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/21/boston-globe-abuse-scandal-catholic

Even that Guardian article has some minimizing of certain facts in it, maybe because it is a British paper.

It says prior to 2001, abuse by the Church wasn't being discussed. Well, not in public. But I remember reading that after the 1985 Gauthe case in Louisiana, church leaders were certainly discussing it.

Because their insurance companies had told them they would not pay claims to molestation victims. On the perfectly reasonable grounds that such claims were the result of church negligence, and the Church itself would have to come up with the money.

That's most likely why we heard the Church poor-mouthing and selling off properties after the lid finally blew off the scandal in the early 2000s. And as usual, blaming the wrong people - everybody but themselves.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
17. Speaking of the media...
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 09:45 AM
Oct 2014

Here's one of the few challenges to the reports from the synod...

3 ways the Catholic church should embrace gay rights
By John D. Sutter, CNN
Wed October 15, 2014

(CNN) -- The Catholic church can't have it both ways on gay rights.

Either it must take steps to accept gay and lesbian people as part of its flock -- including them as full members, embracing their unions, decrying Catholic schools that fire gay and lesbian teachers and calling for the full protection of LGBT people around the world.

Or it can go back to emphasizing its condemnation of homosexual acts as "intrinsically disordered," as it does in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The current middle ground -- with church leaders saying "homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer the Christian community," but not fully embracing them as equal humans in the church and under the law -- is unsustainable and dangerous....

MORE at http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/14/opinion/sutter-pope-gay-rights/

Curmudgeoness

(18,219 posts)
18. Three cheers for John Sutter.
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 10:03 AM
Oct 2014

He seems to be a voice of truth in a sea of accolades. His opinion piece is spot-on.

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