OK people. What's the big deal with the word "militant"?

[Starboard Tack]

Apparently, there are members of this group who take offense at the word when used to describe some atheists. This makes no sense to me at all. There are militants on all sides of every issue. These are the people who argue the most vociferously, those who are the most combative and confrontational, the front line banner carriers, flag wavers, you name it. Why do some members shy away from this description if it is applicable? What is there to be ashamed of? We can be militant without being hateful. We can be militant without resorting to bigotry. We can be militant without being arrogant and obnoxious and self righteous. We can be militant with humility.

[Neoma]

1. Doesn't sound as fun, but I guess you could.

[darkstar3]

2. Did I not already explain it to you here?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12302886#post18

[laconicsax]

3. Who's being militant?

Who's taking up arms or advocating violence? That's what "militant" means.

A big problem is that theists routinely see civil questions and challenges to their perspective and privilege as hateful, bigoted, arrogant, obnoxious, self-righteous, etc. It stems from the discomfort caused by challenges to privilege.

[Starboard Tack]

4. Nobody is taking up arms or advocating violence.

That is a narrow definition of militant.

The word militant, which is both an adjective and a noun, usually is used to mean vigorously active, combative and aggressive, especially in support of a cause, as in 'militant reformers'.[1][2] It comes from the 15th century Latin "militare" meaning "to serve as a soldier". The related modern concept of the militia as a defensive organization against invaders grew out of the Anglo-Saxon "fyrd". In times of crisis, the militiaman left his civilian duties and became a soldier until the emergency was over, when he returned to his civilian occupation and life.

However, the current meaning of militant does not usually refer to a registered soldier: it can be anyone who subscribes to the idea of using vigorous, sometimes extreme, activity to achieve an objective, usually political. For example, a "militant [political] activist" would be expected to be more confrontational and aggressive than an activist not described as militant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militant

mil·i·tant
adjective
1.
vigorously active and aggressive, especially in support of a cause: militant reformers.
2.
engaged in warfare; fighting.

[Curmudgeoness]

7. Militant/military and warfare/warfare

Personally, I do not want to wage a war against believers, and I think that the people who do want a war are not helping atheists. We should not be looking for a fight, but I know that there are atheists who are angry enough to fight. I get it. I just have a problem with looking for an acceptance by violence.

[Starboard Tack]

16. I'm with you 100%

I think it is fair to attack a religious institution or religious leader for their actions, but not to attack believers for their personal faith.

[laconicsax]

12. There are some words used there that should tell you something.

"Combative," "aggressive," "confrontational," etc.

"Militant" atheist is a pejorative label applied to atheists who stand up for themselves. We get called "militant" for asking "how do you know what you claim to know?" and saying "that's factually incorrect." Neither of those statements are taken as combative, aggressive, or confrontational in any normal setting, so why should they be considered such when the topic is religion?

It's a method of marginalizing a legitimate point of view as extreme and unreasonable. It's the same as calling someone a "fundamentalist" atheist, which itself is a contradiction in terms.

[Starboard Tack]

17. Why is "fundamentalist" atheist a contradiction in terms?

It's as absolutist as a fundie christian. Allowing no room for anything in between. When I use the word "militant", I use it in the sense that militants recognize no middle ground, cutting off all possibility of reasonable debate. Dogma is dogma, regardless of it's provenance.
I won't use it in future around here, because it is taken (erroneously imo) as an insult.

There's a big difference between standing up for oneself and getting in someone's face by insulting their beliefs.

[laconicsax]

26. Fundamentalism is a Christian movement.

Look it up if you don't believe me. The term "fundamentalist" refers to a specific Christian movement.

It's taken as an insult because it's meant as one.

While's there's no dogma in atheism, I invite you to try to prove otherwise.

[Starboard Tack]

27. No, I'll accept that for the purpose here.

I don't want to get into another battle on semantics. I have this tendency to take words literally and I'm learning that one needs to be much more concerned with interpretation. Just learning the local lingo. Thanks.

[AlbertCat]

52. Allowing no room for anything in between.

"anything in between."


What exactly would that be? God exists sometimes?

[amuse bouche]

53. Could not agree more

No means no...I will never be nice to the KKK ...there is no God. Period

[AlbertCat]

5. We can be militant with humility.

MILITANT:
adjective
1.
vigorously active and aggressive, especially in support of a cause, typically favoring extreme, violent or confrontational methods.


But with humility!




Besides it's used too often re a person who simply does not let religion have any authority over them.... someone who sees no need to respect malarky.... especially from a group that condemns them to eternal suffering.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

6. Why do black people have a problem with the word "n*gger"?

Seriously, would you argue with an African-American who complained after you dropped an N-bomb on him? Would you tell him that "it's not a big deal, and don't take offense because I didn't mean it in that way."?

Words have meaning, and often have multiple meanings. "Militant" is used as a slur by believers to categorize atheists as something that they can safely ignore.

The same goes for the terms "fundamentalist atheist" or "fundie atheist". Those are used purely in a pejorative sense (like the word "militant&quot rather than as a useful descriptor.

[laconicsax]

13. That's a bit extreme.

You could have probably gotten your point across with "feminazi" equally well.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

14. Perhaps

But I couldn't think of anytime that the word "feminazi" would be appropriate. The N-word has legitimate usages by African Americans, and that was the point of the analogy, I guess.

[rrneck]

8. It's only a perjorative

if atheists tote their attitude in the open.

Sorry, I couldn't resist fucking with you there...

[cleanhippie]

15. I see what you did there!

[Starboard Tack]

18. LOL You can be pretty funny at times.

Yeah, I got the message. Once again. I really have to stop being so militant myself.

[rrneck]

20. Hell if I couldn't pull somebody's chain at least once a day

life wouldn't be any fun at all.

It's fun to play with words. Language is every bit as plastic as paint. There is almost no term or phrase I won't mess around with just for the fun of it. I've pissed off half the atheists on this board because of my fondness for the malleability of language.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being a militant anything, but context is important. Around here, the term militant is viewed as a pejorative. Elsewhere, maybe not.

Every social group has its own linguistic quirks and catch phrases. It's just a part of socializing that people do. A large part of learning to get along with them is learning their particular "language". Sometimes terminology can become so esoteric that the actual meaning of the word is lost or ignored in favor of its simulacrum. If that's the case, it might mean you've joined a cult.

[Starboard Tack]

21. You're right and I should've known better.

Especially as languages and dialects is one of my favorite subjects. I'm catching on though. Must be slowing down a bit in my old age. And I don't mind having my chain pulled occasionally. Keeps me on my toes. Keep up the good work.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

23. I rarely run across a word I've never seen

"Simulacrum" is one of them. One of my favorite pastimes is reading through World Wide Words - Weird Words Index for obscure words to pepper in my emails to coworkers. Have you ever read it?

[rrneck]

24. Oh, shit. Now you've done it.

Nope, I haven't seen the site, but now that I have everybody I know will feel it.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

25. LOL

Yep, my coworkers have often been subjected to the pain of World Wide Words.

[skepticscott]

9. The problem is with using it

to form the phrase "militant atheist", because there is no such thing. It's simply used as a smear.

[PassingFair]

10. Because none of us ARE "militant". THAT'S why.

[progressoid]

11. LOL

[BiggJawn]

39. Hah...

Oh, good, that "Militant Xian" has only 2 arguments. My Militant Atheist Mossberg has 10...

[stuntcat]

41. precisely.

I'm "militant" yes, and always with quotes.. "Militant" Atheist.

[Rob H.]

19. Simple

Last edited Sun Jan 22, 2012, 07:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Here on DU, "militant atheist" is used as a slur. There are at least two people over in the Religion group who use it that way ALL THE TIME, along with one of them using the term "organized atheism," even though there is no such thing. They (and others) have also continued to use those terms long after it's been explained to them that, in addition to being patently ridiculous, atheists here find them offensive.

[Starboard Tack]

22. Got it. Thanks. nt.

[ElboRuum]

28. Because it is often misappropriated and misapplied.

A person who is militant about a particular view has a high amount of vested interest in people seeing and eventually personally accepting that view as truth.

Those who simply express that view without much care whether or not the listener accepts that view are not.

Yet, often with atheism a simple expression of a view is described as being 'militant' because it actively challenges the listener when the listeners do not want to be challenged. Put short, difference and the wherewithal to speak of it is threatening to a true believer and is therefore militant.

[Starboard Tack]

31. Yeah, point taken. Thanks.

[MrModerate]

29. I don't mind the word, but . . .

To whom would you apply such a label?

[Starboard Tack]

30. I won't be applying it around here in future.

We have some particularly sensitive "unsouls" who object to the word. They think it is too militant a word, taking it in it's more literary sense, rather than it's figurative and more common, imo, sense.
If I were to use the word, it would apply to those activists who are aggressive in spreading their message. For example, those who picket abortion providers' clinics are militant anti-choice, and those who put down believers solely on the basis of their faith I would have described as being militant, but I don't use the word any more. So let's just say they're a tad OTT (over the top).

[MrModerate]

40. Sorry for the late reply . . .

But I'd disagree with your definition. Militant is more than a degree of objection. It implies an organization that's set itself in opposition and plans to take harsh action.

Telling someone they're a dork for believing fairy stories doesn't quite reach that level for me.

[Taverner]

32. There are no militant Atheists

To be militant, you have to be militarized

There is no militia of atheists

There are, however, many Christian militias

[Starboard Tack]

33. Depends on one's definition of the word "militant"

But I won't be using the word around here in future. In the past, I have applied it to those atheists who display anger and hostility toward people of faith, based solely on their religious beliefs. I don't mean criticism of various nutty religious leaders or totally out-to-lunch tenets of a particular faith, but rather the belittling of individuals because of their basic faith, which IMO borders on, and sometimes crosses then line of bigotry.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

34. Accusing people here of being bigots

Isn't going to make you a lot of friends. That's what you are implying by your post, and it's complete bullshit. Yes we're angry, but for good reason - some of us have experienced the harsh abuse of religion (and religious people) in our lives, and your poo-pooing it just makes you look like a jerk.

[Starboard Tack]

37. I'm not accusing anyone of being a bigot in this group.

I have heard fellow atheists make remarks against individuals, insulting them personally for their beliefs and solely for their beliefs, not their actions. That is bigotry. I'm not here to make friends, I'm here to engage fellow atheists and agnostics and to share experiences and ideas. It is enough that we are targeted as a group, and as individuals, by RW fundies. It does not behoove us to stoop to their level of hypocrisy, hatred and arrogance.
It's OK to be angry and it's OK to attack abuses of power by individuals and institutions. Religions don't abuse. People abuse and many religious leaders and their disciples are the worst abusers. But the majority are just decent folk who don't know any different and don't care to. They are the real victims, not those who escaped. So, go easy on them, that's all I'm saying.

[Taverner]

35. "Militant," to me is a RW descriptor

They used it originally to describe militant feminists. I'm sure there might be a feminist milita out there somewhere, but it doesn't describe who they're using it against.

For me, the Hutteree Militia were Militant Christians. They had a militia. But note how the media never uses that word to describe them.

[Starboard Tack]

36. Yes, I understand

Most folk here take the term literally , so I'm no longer using it. I bow to the consensus.

[Taverner]

38. It cool

I am going to go get a militant cup of coffee

[AtheistCrusader]

55. "based solely on their religious beliefs"

Are their religious beliefs dripping with misogyny, homophobia, and similar bigotry?

I reserve the right to be not-nice to a pack of bigots based on their openly stated beliefs, if their beliefs are indeed bigoted.

Don't like it? Pick a less bigoted religion or something.

[stone space]

45. I find it hard to believe that there are no militant atheists.

And if it were true, that would be a sad, sad commentary on atheism.

It would mean that we're not doing our part and not pulling our weight.

[stone space]

42. Militant is an honorable word. But being a militant atheist is hard work.

It's every bit as hard as being a militant Christian.

Philip Berrigan

Former priest and American peace activist whose radical anti-war campaigns repeatedly landed him in jail

Christopher Reed
The Guardian, Wednesday 11 December 2002 22.08 EST

After finishing his last prison sentence almost exactly a year ago, septuagenarian Philip Berrigan ruefully admitted that doing time was "really a younger person's job". Yet up to the last Berrigan, who has died of cancer aged 79, was still proselytising for peace.
In a statement issued through his wife Elizabeth McAlister on the US Thanksgiving Day holiday at the end of November, the former priest said: "I die with the conviction, held since 1968 ... that nuclear weapons are the scourge of the Earth."

Philip was one half of the famous and militant Roman Catholic Berrigan brothers - Father Daniel Berrigan was the other - who waged a ceaseless campaign against the Vietnam war and were frequently seen on television and in the newspapers being carted off to jail. Philip spent one third of the last three decades behind bars for numerous acts of civil disobedience and estimated his arrests at more than 100.

snip-----------------------

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2002/dec/12/guardianobituaries

[LostOne4Ever]

43. Okay

Last edited Thu May 8, 2014, 04:57 AM - Edit history (1)

You know better than to do something like this. Seriously, necroing this thread in particular, by a blocked member calling us militant given your history with the word fundamentalist.

Yeah this is not kosher and you know it.

Edit:To observers

This poster has been repeatedly reprimanded on this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/123022173#post10

[stone space]

44. What's wrong with being a militant atheist? Or a militant christian for that matter? (nt)

[LostOne4Ever]

46. I was born at night, but it wasn't last night

You are a mathematician, you are intelligent enough to figure that out on your own. But ignoring that, this very thread you posted in discusses what is wrong with it. Are you saying you didn't even read the posts here?

I think you are being horribly horribly insincere and know it.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt last time. But especially today I am not buying this "aww shucks what is wrong with this word routine."

This was a thread by a BLOCKED member. Its one in which several posters explained why the word was not appropriate. It was old....really old, you had to specifically hunt it out. You have been warned about this sort of thing before.

I try to be nice and polite and respectful to everyone. But, I expect some bit of reciprocation.

[stone space]

47. Are you interested in discussing this or simply harassing me?

Because if it's the latter, then I'm not interested.

If you have something against militants, then say so.

Some of the people who I have most respected throughout my life (including former cellmates) have been militants. (I gave one example above.)

Now, you're entitled to your opinion if you dislike militants for some reason, but then you should state what it is you don't like about them, and not just mindlessly harass me for the sin of talking about them.

If you are going to denigrate militants, then at least have the courage to do so openly and honestly, and state your reasons.

Don't act like it's a naughty word that needs to be hushed up or something.

[LostOne4Ever]

48. Well

In one day I went from the list having no names to two.

[stone space]

49. Ok, guess that clinches it. You didn't come to this thread to discuss anything in good faith.

You came here for simple harassment.

At least the harassment seems to be ending.

[skepticscott]

50. Truer words were never spoken

[Manifestor_of_Light]

51. I already posted over in Religion

about how we are all supposed to tiptoe around religion and not criticize it, and I quoted Richard Dawkins and Douglas Adams from my book The God Delusion, because they are more eloquent than I am.

I hate the term "militant atheist" too. Christians get their feelings hurt so easily that any atheist who says "I got facts and evidence. You got fairy tales and myths" is immediately besieged by the pearl-clutching Christians who just can't stand a discussion.

If their faith is secure why are they obsessed with it and talking to each other constantly reinforcing their beliefs, even including a mid-week indoctrination session. That's what I call Wednesday night church.

I got accused of proclaiming my beliefs too much on DU, after I had stated that in real life, I'm around people I don't even associate with because they are always in my face with fishes on their cars, cross jewelry, cross t shirts, bible verse t shirts, even large lighted crosses in their yards, and the Christians on DU just don't understand why I'm mad?


Here's the post. I'm just sick and tired of hearing about how wonderful Jesus is and he's the ready-made answer to ALL of life's problems. In my experience, Christianity just made me depressed as hell and I wanted to crawl in a hole and die, because of that original sin crapola which is emotionally abusive. Yet it's socially acceptable. It was a farce; it did not change anything in my life. My life sucked, only worse. I did get the courage to get the hell out of there and walk away. I was looking for answers like anyone else. But I realized that if there is a God he only works through the good works of people on earth. And they wouldn't help me when I needed a job. :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=129453

[AtheistCrusader]

54. I'm SURE it's not meant as an invective.

Quite certain.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9ZHVaJkdDXo/UrVLvTGkzPI/AAAAAAAAQL0/lkDMyxgrPv4/s1600/atheist+extremists.jpg