Atheists & Agnostics
Related: About this forumWhat is your favorite Bible/religous text quote?
That you like to use to explain why you do not follow it. In my opinion the 3 big ones tend to put women below men, and I have a hard time with that.
Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)Armin-A
(367 posts)Bolo Boffin
(23,796 posts)I've heard a lot of differing interpretations of these two verses, and as a gay man it's kind of important to me. I'm not a Christian anymore by any means, but it would be nice to have a way of showing that the Bible doesn't really condemn homosexuality to shut bigots from the Phelps to my own family members up.
I've read about this being in conjunction with idolatry because of technical reasons in the language used, and I've also seen some of an explanation involving a crucial distinction in Old Testament law between two different categories. None have seemed very persuasive to me. And when I saw something I really think is there, the question is pretty settled for me. Almost.
What I saw is definitely there in the Greek (I dabble), and can be seen in the NIV interpretation as well. Classically this verse is seen as condemning lesbians and then gay men. But I don't think so anymore -- I mean, at least the lesbians are off the hook.
You see, the women in verse 26 are explicitly stated as exchanging natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. An act for an act, the Greek couldn't be clearer. And yet the men in verse 27 are exchanging acts with women for shameful acts with other men. The verb "abandoned" there in verse 27 is the same verb "exchanged" in verse 26. It reads better in English like that, but the main action (exchange) is the same.
Women exchange an act, and men exchange a natural act with women for a shameful one with men. The mens' exchange also includes a switch of partner gender, but the women are not stated as doing so.
I'm pretty sure these days that Paul is trying his euphemistic best to talk about oral and anal sex, that is, anal sex between heterosexual couples, initiated by the woman, and then oral and anal sex between male couples. Indeed, even the way that Paul orders these two situations implies a causality in my mind. Women initiate non-vaginal sex with men (possibly as a way to avoid pregnancy) and "in the same way" the men then begin having sex with men.
In other words, women turn men gay by offering them non-vaginal sex. That makes this passage a rather hideous Pauline midrash on the second creation myth, where the woman offers the man the forbidden fruit. And I'll let you work out what "due penalty" the men receive into their bodies because of this. It's all about ritual impurity.
Once I realized this, I knew right off that the Bible does indeed condemn homosexuality. Well, male homosexuality, anyway. It's not fair that lesbians keep getting away with murder just because these Bronze Age moralists didn't think sex could happen without a penis being involved. The word commonly interpreted as homosexuals in various lists of bad people going to Hell in the Bible is a composite of two Greek words used in the Septuagint in the famous Leviticus passage on men laying with men like with women. So there really is no getting around it.
In my opinion, gay men who want to use the Bible in their lives, be a Christian or whatnot, have a choice. They can accept this teaching and stop having sex, or they can recognize that Paul is full of crap here. Women don't turn men gay. Men don't turn other men gay, for that matter. People don't turn any sexual orientation. This passage, harped on by religious bigots and obsessed over by gay people trying to deal with an imported hatred, is utter baloney.
(There's more to this, of course. Paul is speaking to two groups, Jews and Gentiles, about how ignoring God and how he made the world and all the things leads to all sin. He starts off with an example that is sure to get the Jews and the Gentiles to agree. We can all come together when it's time to bash on the gays, right? Well, you see, there's a penis and a vagina. One goes in the other, just like God made them to fit. It would take somebody mighty committed to ignoring the naturally seen will of God to get that particular combination wrong, amirite? Some crafty woman trying to avoid getting pregnant, introducing men to alternate sexual acts, and voila, the dumb guys finally clue in - hey, I can get laid in all sorts of different places, not just a vagina! And I like my buddies better than any old nutty woman, hyuck, hyuck, hyuck.
(So you can also see the perennial argument of physical compatibility of the sexual organs here as well, also just as idiotic as "women turn men gay." Yes, we get it. If you want to make a baby, then tab A goes into slot B. But there are more tabs and slots than are dreamt of in your philosophy, missionary man, and as long as consent is exchanged between those who have said tabs and slots, there ain't nothing wrong with it under the blue sky.
(And finally, Paul is writing this as his formal introduction to the Romans. If anybody had heard any rumors about St. Paul and his tendency to travel with young men, some that abandon him midtrip, others that hadn't, well, bashing the gays straight off the bat is a great way to smooth over those kinds of tales. Thanks for nothing, Paul, you old closeted bastard.)
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Anyone with even average intelligence who attempts to reconcile that story with a belief in the god of Abraham is going to have a serious bad time staying religious.
And of course speaking of Abraham:
Take your son, your only sonyes, Isaac, whom you love so muchand go to the land of Moriah. Go and sacrifice him as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will show you.
Genesis 22.
With that the reasonable human must conclude that the only honorable course of action, even if presented with irrefutable evidence that this god exists, is to deny the existence of this god.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Iphigenia anyone?
The Bible is the most unoriginal bunch of cut & paste ever conceived.
In most all cases, the original myths are better.
onager
(9,356 posts)Not followed because - as all atheists know - this is the most inefficient way of tenderizing Xian baby meat. Try marinating instead.
lindysalsagal
(20,648 posts)BiggJawn
(23,051 posts)So wasteful...
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
This is the selflessness that characterizes truly enlightened people.
Almost NO ONE lives by it. Certainly no republicans that I have ever met.
Iggo
(47,547 posts)And the eye of a needle one, too.
NeoGreen
(4,031 posts)
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites (are): for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
It is where their glorious jeebus commands the xians to STFU and Stay in the Closet.
(lest they be hypocrites)
lindysalsagal
(20,648 posts)Just give up now. There's no topping that one.
BiggJawn
(23,051 posts)"Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples, "
More fruit!
TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)But you, when you pray, enter into your closet and lock your door, and pray to your father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you in public.
I always say, "I wish people who called themselves Christian would listen to one fucking thing that Jesus said."
laconicsax
(14,860 posts)[div class="excerpt" style="border-left: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-right: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius: 0.3077em 0.3077em 0em 0em; box-shadow: 2px 2px 6px #bfbfbf;"]Submission to the Authorities[div class="excerpt" style="border-left: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-right: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius: 0em 0em 0.3077em 0.3077em; background-color: #f4f4f4; box-shadow: 2px 2px 6px #bfbfbf;"]1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
Remember too, the historical context of this bit of scripture--it was written during the reign of Nero, who had a penchant for killing Christians for fun. I'm not aware of another passage which so explicitly endorses authoritarianism, and it's fun to mention in political discussions, especially to the moron tea partier whose head explodes when they read that Obama was instituted by God and that they need to pay all their taxes. It's also a good one to bring up when 'confronted' with the atrocities of Stalin, Pol Pot, etc., because the passage clearly states that the purges and massacres were the carrying out of God's wrath.
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)And Yezelabub did produce a mighty poop, and verily I say unto thee, his caca was blessed by the angels who descended down from the heavens to behold the mighty pile.
Okay, I made that up.
Armin-A
(367 posts)haha good stuff!
Deep13
(39,154 posts)...our department would lose most of its brightest stars. I'm in one class with six students, all men, and a female professor. Some of us went to that school just because they have that specific professor. What would the author of Timothy think of that?
Armin-A
(367 posts)Oh I think I should rule this nation...and all of these men.
There are so many inspirational, talented, and wonderful women in the world (and men) that they should not be held back from their true potential due to religion. (Bachmann is not one of these imo)
Also, my undergrad in engineering allowed me an experience similar to yours, not as extreme, but we would have, in a class of 30, about 5-10 females.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)she should stay in the kitchen and do what her husband tells her. According to her holy book.
Anyone might think she was some kind of hypocrit, or something.
Armin-A
(367 posts)its like using Leviticus to say homosexuals should not be allowed to marry but not following
Leviticus 11 -8
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.
iris27
(1,951 posts)My denomination claimed that the OT was "fulfilled" by Jesus, but that they followed all morality rules set forward in the NT. But clearly, that wasn't true. There are some other gems in that chapter - gold jewelry, braided hair, and praying without a hat on are all apparently no-nos.
Another NT gem: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." Ephesians 6:5
dimbear
(6,271 posts)is a fertile field.
Pour out Your wrath on the nations who have not known You, and on the kingdoms who have not called on Your name. (Psalm 79:6)
That's praying, my friends.
And you have to admit it's more than fair, because ignorance is no excuse.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
1:3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
The rest is fairly rubbish philosophy (nothing new under the sun? Yeh, right) but these three are not too bad.
I quite like Luke 22:35-38 as well because it counters that nonsense about Jesus only ever preaching peace.
22:35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)It's a shame there are no records of the supposed Council of Jamnia. That would have made some tasty reading. If it even occurred.
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)Not sure if that is correctly stated, but I have always lived by it.
stuntcat
(12,022 posts)"Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it.
And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth,
on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea.
They are given into your hand."
(Genesis 9:1-2)
Or "RAPE THE EARTH" as some prominent republicans like to interpret it
In this Humanity is winning 100% !!!!
Blessed Be!!!
yellerpup
(12,253 posts)After a sermon in which the preacher claimed that there was no subject the Bible didn't answer, he was asked by a congregant about PMS. Preacher thought and thought and finally came up with..."and Mary rode his ass all the way to Bethlehem."