The best way to stump fundy's who suggest only those who believe get into heaven

[Quixote1818]

In recent years I haven't been in too many arguments with folks I know about religion, however the few times I have been, including last night I have found one line of reason that I use, that seems to always stump them. Last night a friend and I were discussing probabilities of different thing and I said something about there being a 100% probability that we all die. He then went on to say that those who believe will never die to which I said "If you are trying to convert me into becoming a Christian on the live forever line but only if I believe in Jesus, it won't work because I could never believe in a God that would exclude good folks, many of which are my family and friends who I know are wonderful people. That is not a God I would ever respect or want to worship."

He is usually the type to keep arguing but got quite trying to think of a comeback and the argument just ended. This has happened to me before a couple of times. I think the reason it works is because they themselves probably find it a bit tyrannical and really what more can they say when you just took the moral high ground over their God?

[Binkie The Clown]

1. My favorite argument starts out avoiding the subject of god,

but talking about personal tragedies and remarking "You know, if I had the power to do so, I would cure cancer." (or make tornadoes avoid people's homes; or be sure that earthquakes didn't knock down buildings; or...) They usually agree with that. I follow up with "Then that makes both of us better that your god."

I stole that line from someone, but I don't recall who. Dawkins maybe, or Hitchens.

[packman]

2. I remember the exact circumstances I lost my faith

about 10 years old sitting in the basement with other young Roman Catholics getting catechism lessons from a nun when she brought up the salvation of souls and how, unless you are brought to Christ, your soul is doomed to hell.
I raised my hand and asked her if that meant those people living on islands away from civilization are going to hell and she replied they would. This just didn't sit right with me and the Church and Christ seemed awfully cruel and judgmental. A God who made souls and then damning them because they hadn't been exposed to Christ just didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

[Arugula Latte]

3. Also, what about all the people who were born before JC?

What are they, chopped liver?

And where does the line get drawn? Are Neanderthals excluded from this whole heaven/hell thing because they weren't homo sapiens? How about other almost-human species?

Why did God let dinosaurs be the dominant species for hundreds of millions of years and then let modern humans hang around for 200,000 years and then and only then decided to rape some poor virgin in Judea to produce His Magical Offspring?

...Things that make you go "hmmm."

[OriginalGeek]

7. lol, there were no neanderthals

It's Adam and Eve not Ogg and Creve!


We were taught kind of a hybrid "theory" - if by some chance those primitives never got to talk to one of our missionaries then they could look around at the wonder of nature and believe in God. But the only sure thing was hearing the word of god so keep sending missionaries. I always thought that was more an argument against sending missionaries but sunday school teachers were tired of hearing from me about it.

[Arugula Latte]

10. There are some sects, like the RCC, that do accept evolution.

I always wonder how the more intelligent believers attempt to reconcile reality with their nonsensical mythology.

[AlbertCat]

8. Also, what about all the people who were born before JC?

Don't forget infants who die before being baptized!

They go to limbo.... or used to... (limbo was almost like heaven but not quite as good )

I love how a while back, The Pope and Catholic Church just decided limbo didn't exist.

Tough luck, babies!

[Arugula Latte]

9. I can picture the pope cracking open some communion wine and getting drunk:

"Ahh, fuck it. Dog Heaven exishts but Baby Limbo doeshn't. Cuz I shay sho!"

[Freelancer]

4. Not one of the 144,000...

Once, on the morning of second day of a family reunion -- a Sunday -- about a quarter of the Christian cousins decided to hijack the event and turn it into a Jesus-fest -- complete with guitars (yeehaw). I decided to walk down the road until afternoon, when the beer would come out, and wound-up getting bitten on the thigh by a big black dog. The Christian cousins LOVED that. "See, if you'd stayed and listened to the word, this wouldn't have happened," one said. "God's telling you something." In reply, I said that I would do it all over again -- that I'd rather be bitten by an angry dog than listen to their bullshit. That REALLY pissed them off. "So, you'd rather go to hell." I said YES. If the choice is between eternity with ignorant cousins, and an angry dog, I choose the dog.

[Delmette]

5. I got the same line from a friend.

I told her that I didn't believe in a god that would condemn millions, no billions of people who had done nothing wrong. She had no reply and quickly finished lunch. In the twelve years since I haven't from her.

[Curmudgeoness]

6. LOL, "took the moral high ground over their god".

That seems like a completely rational response to me, but I am sure that your friend wasn't too happy with it. At least you can be sure that this friend will avoid these religious discussions with you in the future. I hope. The other option is that they will take this dilemma up with their pastor, and get back to you.

[onager]

11. How an Amazonian tribe turned a missionary into an atheist

I've posted this before. But it's such an amazing story, I think it deserves a re-run for our newer inmates:

How an Amazonian tribe turned a missionary into an atheist

A riveting and hugely satisfying report on BBC Radio 4 today tells the story of a missionary who was charged by an American missionary group with taking the Gospel to the little understood Pirahas tribe in the Amazon – only to realise how ridiculous his faith in Christianity was.

Daniel Everett, 57, a linguist in the Departmental Chair of Languages, Literatures and Cultures at Illinois State University, told presenter John McCarthy on the Excess Baggage programme, that he had travelled to the Amazon in the 70s to bring the tribe “the joy of faith” only to discover that they were a deeply contented people. In fact they seemed far better contented than he was.

http://freethinker.co.uk/2008/11/08/how-an-amazonian-tribe-turned-a-missionary-into-an-atheist/

[Gore1FL]

12. I have a few arguments for that

1> Life Guards rescue people all of the time without being asked, or without the victim even knowing they are watching. Why do you think God is inferior to Life guards.

2> God put holy texts inn circulation to week out the people that would follow things without proof. He will reward those who seek logical methods and damn all others to prevent Satan from tricking gullible people in the afterlife.