This just in! The Roman Catholic Church is a secular organization!

[laconicsax]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121823315#post11

[trotsky]

1. LOL, glad I wasn't the only one who WTFed at that.

[dmallind]

2. Well the RCC has HAD secular power for centuries, but that's using power as an abstract noun

The church has certainly had and keeps entirely non-ecclesiastical administrative power.

But since secular means not connected to a religious order, it cannot properly be said to be a secular power (power as a concrete noun).

So half right if you're feeling generous.

[laconicsax]

8. I'm not generous like that.

If the RCC's non-religious functions (like bookkeeping and covering up after serial rapists) make it a secular organization, the US Army must be a religious organization because it has chaplains.

[opiate69]

3. also....

the Crusades weren`t religious wars!

[laconicsax]

4. Well, they can't have been if the Pope is the leader of a secular organization.

[opiate69]

6. dammit! good point!

you and your damned logic!

[progressoid]

7. Yeah, that was all about the spice trade or something right?

Good grief.

[cleanhippie]

5. Holy shit. Loved your Orwell response, too.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

9. If that's the case, let's tax the assholes

[onager]

10. And it owes its secular statehood to the Fascists.

The real ones. Not Obama and his cabinet. (SARCASM, since I just know some humorless snooping assjack will Alert on that.)

Mussolini made vitriolic attacks against Christianity and the Catholic Church, "which he accompanied with provocative and blasphemous remarks about the consecrated host and about a love affair between Christ and Mary Magdalen." ...He denounced the Catholic Church for "its authoritarianism and refusal to allow freedom of thought..."

Got that? OK, hang onto your mitres...

Despite making such attacks, Mussolini would try to win popular support by appeasing the Catholic majority in Italy...On 11 February 1929, he signed a concordat and treaty with the Roman Catholic Church. Under the Lateran Pact, Vatican City was granted independent statehood and placed under Church law—rather than Italian law—and the Catholic religion was recognized as Italy's state religion.

The Church also regained authority over marriage, Catholicism could be taught in all secondary schools, birth control and freemasonry were banned, and the clergy received subsidies from the state, and was exempted from taxation. Pope Pius XI praised Mussolini, and the official Catholic newspaper pronounced "Italy has been given back to God and God to Italy..."

(Mussolini)...wanted to persuade Catholics that "Fascism was Catholic and he himself a believer who spent some of each day in prayer..." The Pope began referring to Mussolini as "a man sent by Providence."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini

[laconicsax]

11. Statehood doesn't confer a secular status

The Vatican is a theocratic state that is home to the largest religious organization in the world. Every part of its existence is dedicated to the promotion of Catholicism.

No part of that is secular.

[onager]

12. Agreed, I should have been more clear...

And called it a fictional statehood...like these guys...

A new book published today by eminent jurist Geoffrey Robertson QC ‘unmasks the fiction of the statehood of the Holy See’ the British Humanist Association (BHA) has said, describing it as ‘very welcome’ in challenging the whole basis of the Pope’s state visit to the UK. ‘The Case of the Pope: Vatican Accountability for Human Rights Abuse’ critiques the Vatican’s claim to statehood.

The BHA is a leading voice in the campaign against the state visit of the Pope to the UK and is a founder member of the ‘Protest the Pope’ campaign.

Andrew Copson, BHA Chief Executive, commented, ‘The Holy See’s pretensions to statehood are nothing more than a convenient fiction allowing the Catholic Church increased power on the international stage and an amplification of its influence on individual states through treaties with those states and on international organisations. This masquerade threatens democracy, human rights and the rule of law wherever it is recognised and Geoffrey Robertson’s contribution to un-masking this is very welcome’.

http://www.humanism.org.uk/news/view/637

[backscatter712]

13. I saw that - COMEDY GOLD!!!

[Rob H.]

14. The irony is making my head hurt

The RCC hierarchy wants to badger secular lawmakers into making same-sex marriage illegal and limiting women's reproductive rights, but when it comes to pedophile priests, they blatantly flout laws that mandate child sexual abuse be reported to secular law enforcement agencies.

Cherry-picking: it's not just for Bible passages anymore!


Edited for clarity.

[opiate69]

15. and another one now....

Last edited Thu May 10, 2012, 10:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Timothy McVeigh wasn`t a Christian terrorist... I guess I just imagined the CIM involvement and the whole Turner Diaries thing...

[onager]

16. McVeigh is a tricky one.

Haven't seen the post you're referring to yet, but it could be one of the "gotcha!" setups beloved by some Religion posters...and one in particular. ("I'm posting this thread about a horrible gory accident involving religious believers... now don't you DARE mention religion!&quot

McVeigh was raised Catholic. He claimed to be an agnostic at one point, with "science" as his only religion. But he also said he maintained "core beliefs," and received Catholic Last Rites before his execution in 2001.

[laconicsax]

17. Well, that would imply that he's in heaven.

That's how it works, right? Ask for absolution and accept Jesus right before you die and go to heaven?

[Goblinmonger]

19. Yes and no.

Last Rites (actually Extreme Unction) assumes that there is Penance for sins if the person receiving the sacrament is capable, which Timmy would have been. If he went through the Penance stage of Last Rites and if he was sincere in his contrition, then, yes, Timmy is in heaven!

[opiate69]

18. The thread is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/124089252

I maintain that his Catholic upbringing, his alliance with the Christian Identity Movement and his desire to set off a Right-wing, Christian rebellion a la the Turner Diaries pretty much makes him a bona fide Christian terrorist...