What on earth am I supposed to say?

[cynatnite]

I got in a somewhat long discussion with my sister and a few others on FB about marriage equality. Of course, the bible came into it and I pretty much decimated their biblical arguments.

Then I was accused of telling them how to live. I was forcing them to accept homosexuality, gay marriage and all that.

The fact of the matter is I don't care what religion people believe. If they want to worship a tree or a teapot in the sky, I don't care. I start caring when they use their religious beliefs to discriminate and to support discrimination.

I continue to hold back my true feelings about religion in general...that it's oppressive, promotes ignorance and that you're better off believing in Santa Claus.

What it comes down to is that I feel like I'm the one that always treads carefully as to not offend religous folks, but they have no qualms about talking about the immorality of atheists, dems and all that. It's aggravating.

[Rittermeister]

1. Sounds like dinner with my father

I haven't had an honest exchange with him in three years.

[MrModerate]

2. It all pretty much comes down to the Golden Rule.

If they can't grasp that, then there's probably no hope.

[daaron]

3. That is the essence of Christian privilege in the U.S.A. nt

[Angry Dragon]

4. Tell them from what you have read in the Bible

you are just trying to live the way their Jesus Christ told them how to live
and he is telling them how to live
if they do not like the way Jesus is telling them how to live then they should quit saying they are Christians

They can not say they are Christians just because they believe in Jesus they also have to believe what he has to say

[dimbear]

5. Christians will happily tell you that religion made a lot of progress between the OT and the NT.

Religion made a lot of progress between say 500 BCE and 120 CE. Then progress stopped and if you don't agree you are damned.

Sounds 'reasonable.'

I hate that sarcasm emoticon.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

6. The problem with that is that the sayings attributed to Jesus are not consistent.

He allegedly said lots of cruel and violent things, like "I come not in peace but with a sword". There are hundreds more examples, like the cussing out of a fig tree that did not fruit out of season.

So you can believe anything and be a xtian because the sayings are so inconsistent.

I learned about the fact that the bible is a total mess put together to consolidate Constantine's empire and oppress slaves and women, in my Old Testament class at a Presbyterian university. It was about textual analysis (J,E,D,P, pre-exile, post-exile etc) and history.

Oh, ask em about David and Jonathan, while you're at it.

[DrKPhd]

7. A question for cynatnite

When you say you decimated their biblical arguments, what do you mean? Could you clarify which arguments you used? Because the Bible is very clearly against homosexuality. I know Jesus doesn't say anything about it but, you know, man shall not lie with a man or what not.

So I wondered if you pointed out other ridiculous rules in the Bible -- no fiber-mixing in clothes, women shouldn't wear gold or pearls and should braid their hair, etc. -- or if you tried to argue something else? I am always interested in new arguments.

[cynatnite]

8. Yep, I used the crazy laws...

Mentioned slavery, concubines and whatnot. Of course, that was when I was accused of twisting the bible. That was the strongest comeback. Of course, that was easy to knock down as well.

I found that if they want to use the bible to support their arguments, using it to knock them down works just as well, too.

[DrKPhd]

9. "For the times"

That's what I always hear as the defense. "Oh, well, slavery was just the current system, and he wanted to make it at least more humane." Which seems a bit of a dick move for God. He prohibits this and that innocuous thing but can't come down too hard on slavery because he doesn't want to rock the boat.

[pacalo]

10. I don't think the Old Testament has the relevancy today that it once had.

Today, if people aren't having to work on Sundays, they're likely to be paying for a commodity, service, or some luxury on the Sabbath day, & thereby passively approving labor on Sundays (except for themselves, of course).

I googled about today's relevancy of the Old Testament & I came across this article, which provoked my thoughts about the old Blue Laws, & the question at the end could go both ways: Does it matter?

I truly think people would be better people if they lived their lives as they personally see fit, but when it comes to others' lives, butt out.

Is the Old Testament still relevant to Christians today?

You don't have to be a Christian to answer this - as someone outside the faith, how do you view Christians who do or do not follow the Old Testament laws? Does it matter?

http://www.revelife.com/709658149/is-the-old-testament-still-relevant-to-christians-today/

[WillParkinson]

11. Well, yes and no...

It doesn't have the relevancy it once had....

Until it agrees with something you find icky. Then suddenly it's the word of gawd.

Everything else, though, it subject to interpretation.

[pacalo]

28. I love your answer, Will!

[liberal N proud]

12. They cry wolf and say you are trying to tell them how to live when it is them who are trying to...

tell others how to live.

It is lame to lay out that argument against their own bigotry. They don't want to allow gays to marry because they don't want anyone to tell them that they have to accept the fact that others don't want anyone to tell them how to live.

Makes my head hurt. - what happened to live and let live?

[trotsky]

13. I've had limited success with the following three approaches when dealing with folks like that.

1) Throw the "judge not lest ye be judged" and "let him without sin cast the first stone" lines at them nonstop. Yes, there are plenty of other verses they can use to justify their prickishness BUT those two quotes from the J-dude himself, allegedly.

2) Ask them, how does a same-sex marriage affect them personally? If they are married themselves, ask them if two gays getting married will cause them to leave their spouse? If they're honest, they'll have to answer that they won't give a shit and nothing in their lives will change.

3) Remove the religion component from the discussion. Say that regardless of religious feelings, our society has conferred certain legal and financial benefits on married couples because we value stable adult relationships. And our constitution says we cannot deny benefits to one group of people that we are providing another.

If all else fails, remind them that when their god got mad and destroyed large groups of humanity, he usually pulled aside the people who were pleasing him and spared them. Noah, Lot, etc. So they should just butt the hell out, mind their own fucking business, and let others do what they want.

[Rob H.]

15. This is one of those times I wish we could rec individual posts

I might add that one could point out that Jesus himself said nothing about homosexuality.

[onager]

16. And if you really want to piss 'em off...

You can get into WHY it might have been that JC didn't mention homosexuality.

Accordng to our only evidence, the Buy-bull: he was an unmarried Jewish male in his 30s, at a time when that would have been very unusual in his community. He hung around almost exclusively with men.

That's not the only eyebrow-raiser about JC, if we look at him the way we would anybody else, and not thru the Krazy Khristian Kaleidoscope.

He didn't seem to like his mother very much and often treated her with contempt. In general JC seemed to have issues with women. Let's not forget that charming story about him healing a Gentile woman while comparing her to a dog. Yes, there was that whole saved-a-woman-from-stoning thing. But using the all-important IN CONTEXT reasoning, he seems to have done that mostly to piss off his religio-political enemies.

Jesus also seems to have been one of the originial Welfare Queens. Apparently he gave up a good, solid career in carpentry to wander around Judea with his doting all-male entourage, shooting off his mouth about a lot of metaphysical hokum.

That also goes for his disciples, who gave up their own good jobs. And often come across in the NT as a bunch of lazy, violent and fairly dim-witted sods.

How did these people live? JC himself seems to have mooched off the meager earnings of Mary Magdalene. We know of that one case where he rather loftily dissed poor people, and suggested that some expensive oil be used on himself, rather than being sold to help the poor.

As we cranky non-believers often point out, he's a real One-Size-Fits-All Messiah. You can use his alleged sayings to justify anything from communism to all-out free-market capitalism, from gay rights to gay bashing. Amazing.

[daaron]

17. And if you really REALLY want to piss 'em off...

Start quoting some of the "Lost Books" and Gnostic gospels at them. Going back to Nice and starting over is always an option.

[eqfan592]

14. "Forcing them to accept homosexuality?"

Supporting legalized gay marriage is no more "forcing" them to accept homosexuality than supporting freedom of religion is "forcing" them to accept the gods of other belief systems. You and your religion don't HAVE to support homosexuality in order to support the rights of homosexuals, just as you and your religion don't HAVE the accept the existence of other gods in order to support the free exercise of other religions.

THEY are the one who are forcing THEIR religious views on the rest of us, not the other way around. I would make that point clear to them.

[daaron]

18. Very well said.

Don't you wish there was reasoning with believers?

Kinda like I wish my dogs could understand English. It would make things so much easier when I'm trying to tend their boo-boos.

[OriginalGeek]

19. I am now taking bets

on the over/under for time until the above post gets copied to religion and decried for calling believers dogs.

[daaron]

20. Ooops!

That was NOT my intended implication!

I love my dogs like children! I just wish they could understand me.

[daaron]

21. Uh-oh. Now I might've implied believers are like children.

But I like children better than adults, so it's not an insult.

[daaron]

22. Whoa! Now I might've implied that I like believers better than atheists.

Since my metaphor then implied that atheists are adults, who I said I like less than children!

I think I might be screwed, here.

HELP!

[OriginalGeek]

23. lol, you were right from the start

My favorite aunt and late uncle are/were atheist pet lovers. I can relate.

[daaron]

24. Whew! Thx. nt

[Curmudgeoness]

26. Great argument with yourself, daaron! nt

[Curmudgeoness]

25. I think you said it well......

that is what you should say to them. Especially your last statement.

[BiggJawn]

27. You're not "forcing" them to do anything.

You presented a clear-cut argument for marriage equality and the remnant logical part of their brains is in conflict with the ate-up religious reptile part.

They know they're wrong, they're just making your fault they're not comfortable with being religious bigots anymore.

You presented a side of the question Pastor never told them about. It's their choice whether to come into enlightenment or continue to live in ignorance, nobody's "forcing" them but their own conscience.