Hillary had better be careful

[cali]

It's no secret that although I wholeheartedly support Bernie, I see Hillary (yes, even now) as the prohibitive favorite to be the nominee. I realize that annoys some of my fellow Bernie supporters, but that's just how it looks to me, despite the encouraging trends. If I had to sum it up, i'd simply say the house always wins. The house, in this case, being the Democratic establishment.
But Bernie has motivated and excited millions of voters. Those voters are critical to Hillary if she's the nominee. She won't win without them.

So what's she doing? Planning to go nuclear on him. Hell, she's already taken the first steps down that perilous path. Tom Vilsack stated it bluntly: The Clinton campaign is going to redefine him by negative campaigning and attack ads. They're doing this using the flimsiest, filmiest of excuses; blatantly lying and saying that Bernie started it with his "Two Visions" ad. Now maybe they'll succeed, but there's a high cost to pay. She'll be doing long term, unnecessary damage to herself that may well cost us the election and will certainly damage long term democratic goals. The last thing Hillary needs to do is make herself less likable and pad the legions of voters who don't trust her, along with motivating voters to go to the polls expressly to vote against her. Not just republicans, but independents.

Doesn't she have staff who she listens to? Or is her campaign so insular that they've weeded out advisors who would tell her not to do this?

There are dozens of legitimate ways for Hillary to favorably contrast herself with Bernie on every issue from health care to gun control, but Hillary has chosen dishonest attacks that turnoff voters. Her political instincts are lousy.

[restorefreedom]

1. she did this in 2008

they never learn.

the public is already onto her slimy antics and dragging the entire family in to play the game. if you want to see the backlash that will ensue, just check twitter or reddit. social media is already ablaze.

that makes this election even more favorsble to bernie than 2008. things get on sm immediately. the public is sick of being hoodwinked, lied to, and beaten down by the fascist oligarchs

bernie v trump 2016.

[MissDeeds]

7. +1000

Same antics, different year. It didn't work then and it won't work now.

[restorefreedom]

8. i thought she had the best of the best advising her.

and yet they keep doing this.....

[snoringvoter]

28. Er, the best of the best doesn't help when they are

of the same hive mind.

They all think the same thoughts. Bernie isn't establishing one, he's got something real going on, and people are listening.

[restorefreedom]

31. i guess the collective all think as one..... nt

[magical thyme]

62. the best of the best can't help if you don't take their advice

and I have vague memories of reading a couple times that she blows off what she doesn't want to hear.

[restorefreedom]

86. mmmm, yes, the entitlement mentality. she knows best! nt

[lewebley3]

76. Wrong: Hillary should fight against the Sanders fraudulent ideas

[Arugula Latte]

79. Lol.

Yes, all those "fraudulent" ideas that would benefit regular Americans instead of Wall Street honchos.

[Mike__M]

81. Thanks, lewebley3

We'd hardly know what to think, if you weren't here to help us out.

[restorefreedom]

87. nothing fraudulent about the oligarchy trying to screw all of us

but it is primary season, and we are all free to support the candidate of our choice

[lewebley3]

97. Sanders has no plan to take on the oligarchy: he never has:

He just promise: the people who have worked
with him the most are not supporting him

[restorefreedom]

98. alrighty. have a nice day. nt

[lewebley3]

99. Just a fact:

[restorefreedom]

100. you are free to have your opinion

as i hsve mine. they are clearly different

you are not going to support bernie any more likely than i will hillary.


that's just the way it is in primaries.

[gilpo]

101. I've read you say the same thing a few times with no evidence

What fraudulent ideas are you talking about?
single payer will save us money? it will
banks perpetrated a huge fraud on the world? they did
college can be funded with a wallstreet transaction tax? it can

links please

[lewebley3]

104. Sanders cannot breakup the banks: He just like Trump an his wall

[Tom Rinaldo]

2. I absolutely agree with you on both counts

Hilary is still a clear favorite overall (though Bernie now has a real chance to pull off the upset) AND it should be clear as hell now to her and her camp how much fervent support Sanders has in this country - AND WHY. It is one thing to simply defeat him, most of his supporters would still come around to back her against the Republican nominee, and even fight FOR her when they go ugly negative against her. But if Hillary unleashes dishonest attacks against Sanders now many will never forgive and forget. She is gambling on turning off another generation of potential Democratic voters for who knows how many years, in essence believing she can eek out a victory over the Republicans without them this year.

[cali]

3. Hi Tom. I want to take the opportunity to commend and thank you

for the two terrific ops you've recently posted.

[Tom Rinaldo]

4. Thanks cali. I still am in awe of the consistantly thoughtful stream of postings you make here

Back at ya

[snoringvoter]

30. Just wanted to let you both know

that you are two of the most amazing posters who really fight for Bernie.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

[cali]

34. Thank you so much for the kind words

[emulatorloo]

64. Same here Tom. great stuff. And, Cali, some great posts and threads in the last few days as well.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

6. Hillary showing her true colors... only going to destroy what little credibility she has left.

Say hello to President Sanders!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[winter is coming]

27. One of the reasons the "Anyone but Hillary" contigent is so large in the first place is that

people haven't forgiven and forgotten her 2008 campaign.

[Nay]

37. Agreed, and I have been gobsmacked by her reversion to the same

awful tactics that lost her the race in 2008. Who the hell would think these tactics a good idea? I can't imagine.

[winter is coming]

42. She's learned amazingly little from her '08 run.

Either she sucks at choosing political advisers or her own instincts are overriding them.

[KingCharlemagne]

57. Hillary is going all 'Sister Souljah' on 30-45% of the

Democratic Party membership. She's triangulating herself into GE oblivion.

[Agschmid]

5. For the most part I agree.

I wish these campaigns could have stayed positive, but I get it... It's a competitive primary and that seems to create situations like this.

I think there are legitimate questions we should be asking about what the plan and strategy really is to implement some of these proposals.

Either way hopefully they whether the battle and are stronger in the GE.

[cali]

10. Agschmid (yikes, spellcheck just turned that into Kashmir)

It's demonstrably only the Clinton campaign that has gone negative. And here's the thing, Bernie is certainly not impervious to contrasts put forth by Clinton, or thoughtful criticism, but she's choosing the low road, just as she did in 2008.

[Agschmid]

13. I disagree here, I agree Bernie has not gone negative however I feel Jeff Weaver has.

I think he is using Jeff to do a lot of his push against Clinton.

Again it's all perception, you and I were on a thread YD where Bernie supporters (not all of them) were saying Clinton herself had attacked Bernie's grandchildren. That clearly wasn't true, and you and I were on the same page there so sometimes the "attack" is in the eye of the beholder.

[cali]

16. Can you be specific and give examples?

[Agschmid]

17. I can, I'm eating my breakfast right now and then out to knock on 90 doors...

So I'll post back later tonight.

Thanks.

[Voice for Peace]

55. I read about her remark in context

And in the context it was pretty low snark from her.

She just isn't an honest person, or very self aware.
Nastiness inside will always out.

Edit to specify her grandchildren remark

[emulatorloo]

63. Sorry Clinton did not attack Bernie's grandchildren.

Didn't have a damn thing to do with Bernie's grandkids.

I know there was a highly edited clip posted on DU, but it cut her remarks out of the full context.

What was said afterwards was:

"And I feel passionately that just because we had it in the past, doesn’t mean we’re going to keep it in the future. You shouldn’t have to be the granddaughter of a former president to have your American Dream realized. I think every kid should have a chance to live up to her god-given potential."

Try as one might, one can't spin that as an attack on Bernie or Bernie's grandchildren.



"

More here, gives full quote: http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/1/15/1470310/-Clinton-Did-Not-Diss-Sanders-Grandkids

[Voice for Peace]

89. It's not an attack.

But it easily is snark in context.

[sabrina 1]

70. Weaver has only responded to the negative and awful attacks on Sanders from Hillary's campaign.

Had she not eg, tried to paint Sanders as a 'sexist' which she did herself, no one would have needed to correct that particularly despicable attack.

Bernie Sanders defended her against personal attacks constantly, he has refused to engage in personal attacks and insisted that media people stay focused on issues.

Her supporters and campaign went negative right from the beginning, insinuating eg, that Bernie and his supporters were racists, sexists, commies etc. If anyone thinks people are going to forget this, they are mistaken.

No this isn't a case of 'both sides are doing it', not even close. But yes, there will be a response to the nasty attack coming from Hillary's campaign which she should expect by now.

If she wants to raise the level of discourse and stick to issues, there will be no need for Weaver or anyone else to have to address the lies being told about Sanders, will there?

But no one is going to accept the old 'both sides are doing it' when that is blatantly false.

[artislife]

93. Instigators, her campaign is full of them...nt

[sabrina 1]

102. Yes, they seem to think that bullying people is the way to go. I saw so many complaints on Social

Media today about how Hillary's supporters have attacked them, some who were just trying to ask everyone to be respectful. They are getting a terrible rep all over and it isn't going to help their candidate one bit. People who were undecided, were tipped when attacked for NOT being decided by her supporters.

It's fine by me, it's all good for Bernie!

[Jarqui]

9. I too still think she has the advantage though that has significantly eroded

Obama's campaign maybe a once in a lifetime thing.

I am delighted Bernie has a better chance and I hope he pulls it off.

I agree that her campaign's response is really low and it will hurt her for the general election if she's the nominee.

I've also had flashbacks to 2008 very recently because of her low conduct. I think she's a chronic liar and I can't stand that about her. It's been a big, big turnoff for years.

The one additional thought I had which is a point I've made before, is that if she wins the primary, what the Republicans are going to do to her will probably make what she's doing to Bernie now look nice. To some extent, justice is going to get dished out. They hate her and they'll nail her and a lot of folks will buy in on that because they have legitimate material.

[senz]

82. Good, thoughtful post, Jarqui.

Thanks.

[Green Forest]

11. The House does not "always win." It did not win in 2008. It won't win in 2016.

"The House" is getting nervous and is already trying to make nice with an eye to the GE: http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511013818

[cali]

14. Of course it did. Obama had huge democratic establishment support from

the beginning. He had early endorsements from a number of prominent dems well before Iowa. The "house" had two candidates in 2008. It's nuts to claim differently. Here's a list just of the very early endorsements. By January 1, 2008, he'd garnered a ton more, including Kennedy and Leahy.



. Rod Blagojevich (IL) (Feb. 10, 2007) +
Gov. Deval Patrick (MA) (reported Oct. 17, 2007; event Oct. 23)
Gov. Tim Kaine (VA) (Feb. 17, 2007)

U.S. Sen. Dick Durbin (IL) (in Nov. 2006 Durbin posted a "Run, Barack, Run!" petition on his website)
U.S. Sen. Kent Conrad (ND) (Dec. 29, 2007)

U.S. Rep. Artur Davis (AL-7) (Jan. 16, 2007)
U.S. Rep. Robert Wexler (FL-19) (Mar. 1, 2007) +
U.S. Rep. Sanford Bishop (GA-2) (Sept. 10, 2007)
U.S. Rep. Hank Johnson (GA-4) (July 30, 2007)
U.S. Rep. Neil Abercrombie (HI-1) (from day one according to a spokesperson; Abercrombie knew Obama's family before he was born)
U.S. Rep. Dave Loebsack (IA-2) (Dec. 17, 2007) +
...including 8 out of the 10 IL Democratic House members
U.S. Rep. Bobby Rush (IL-1) (reported by CBS News on Jan. 27, 2007)
U.S. Rep. Jesse L. Jackson Jr. (IL-2)
U.S. Rep. Luis V. Gutierrez (IL-4)
U.S. Rep. Danny Davis (IL-7)
U.S. Rep. Melissa Bean (IL-8)
U.S. Rep. Jan Schakowsky (IL-9)
U.S. Rep. Jerry Costello (IL-12)
U.S. Rep. Phil Hare (IL-17)
U.S. Rep. Elijah Cummings (MD-7)
U.S. Rep. Bill Delahunt (MA-10) (Dec. 27, 2007) +
U.S. Rep. John Conyers (MI-14) (May 12, 2007)
U.S. Rep. Rep. Betty McCollum (MN-4) (reported by Minnesota Public Radio on Dec. 12, 2007)
U.S. Rep. Keith Ellison (MN-5) (reported by the Star Tribune on Feb. 20, 2007)
U.S. Rep. William Lacy Clay (MO-1) (May 11, 2007)
U.S. Rep. Russ Carnahan (MO-3) (May 11, 2007; first reported by the St. Louis American on May 9)
U.S. Rep. Carol Shea-Porter (NH-1) (Dec. 11, 2007) +
U.S. Rep. Paul Hodes (NH-2) (July 26, 2007) +
U.S. Rep. Steve Rothman (NJ-9) (July 25, 2007)
U.S. Rep. Chaka Fattah (PA-2) (Dec. 18, 2007)
U.S. Rep. Patrick Murphy (PA-8) (Aug. 21, 2007)
U.S. Rep. Jim Cooper (TN-5)
U.S. Rep. Al Green (TX-9) (see for example the Houston Chronicle June 26, 2007)
U.S. Rep. Robert C. "Bobby" Scott (VA-3) (Dec. 20, 2007)
U.S. Rep. Adam Smith (WA-9) (Feb. 2007)
U.S. Rep. Gwen Moore (WI-4) (reported by The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel on April 22, 2007)
and
Delegate to Congress Eni Faleomavaega (AS)

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/cands08/endorse08el.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_presidential_primary_campaign,_2008

[Green Forest]

20. You're entitled to your opinion but I disagree. I volunteered for Barack in Iowa beginning in Fall 2007

And I stood behind him when he gave his victory speech in downtown Des Moines in Jan. 2008.

I assure you, he was not viewed as a "House" candidate back then.

[cali]

23. It's not anopinion. It's FACT. Bernie has 3 Super Delegates

By Iowa, Obama had well over a hundred. You are simply as wrong as you could be based on facts.

[temporary311]

36. I think people forget

because Obama ran as an outsider, at least to a degree that Hillary isn't capable of.

[Green Forest]

49. You decided who is "The House" in 2016 using blue links. I was there on the ground in Iowa in 2007.

You were not in Iowa working your tail off like early Obama volunteers were and so cannot comment on what the atmosphere was like in the state back then. Barack was very much the outsider and many doubted he could win the primary, much less the GE.

As for your semantic point, it is clear to me that the establishment aka. House has been and is with The Clintons. You are entitled to your opinion based on your blue link. I will stick to my on-the-ground memories to form my opinion.

I am making bread for my Woman For Bernie group so we have something to nosh on as we phone bank later today.

Carry on!

[cali]

61. No, I wasn't in Iowa but I was in NH a couple

of times canvassing and living in Vermont close to new Hampshire I'm more than familiar with early contests. I'm sorry, but all the facts about comparative establishment supports of Obama and bernie, support me. Obama had as much as Clinton. Bernie has virtually none.

[Green Forest]

71. "Obama had as much" establishment support "as Clinton" in fall 2007? I don't think so.

What you said was, "The House always wins." And I disagreed. Barack's victory over Hillary was historic and totally unexpected. It arguably laid the blueprint for Bernie's run.

In 2007-early 2008, the Dem establishment, in particular Barack's Senate colleagues, certainly did not endorse him "as much as" they did Hillary. Clinton was the establishment choice in 2007-2008 and talk of her coronation was common.

I do agree that Bernie has less comparative establishment support than Barack but I do not see that that the point you were making in your OP.

[cali]

73. I detest dishonest bull. I did not say fall of 2007. I've proven my claims. You?

Embarrassing but keep digging.

[Green Forest]

75. I hate bullshit moving of goalposts. You said, "the house always wins" which did not happen in 2008.

Then you moved the goalposts and started talking about "comparative" establishment support vis a vis Barack vs. Bernie, which is irrelevant to my original point where I referenced my experience volunteering from Fall 2007-Jan. 2008.

Your point about Barack having as much establishment support as Clinton during that time is bullshit. You proved nothing. Where's the list of Senate endorsements of Hillary versus his? He did not have any Senator but Tom Kaine for quite a while compared to Hillary, which is why Senator Kennedy's endorsement after SC was so important for Barack. For you to say otherwise is wrong.

[m-lekktor]

22. exactly!! The "house" backed Obama and abandoned Hillary though Obama's hardcore supporters

who boast "Bernie is no Obama" like to think he was an upstart like Bernie who happened to win because he was much more popular than Bernie will ever be. Well, he had the establishment backing that Bernie will never have and that is why he won, in my view. The establishment powers that be knew he would do their bidding and was a safe bet.

I also agree Hillary will most likely win, which is very unfortunate.

[mountain grammy]

32. Agree!

[senz]

84. Thanks for the link, Green Forest.

[lostnfound]

12. Absolutely agree

Paint yourself as more pragmatic or more experienced, sure.
Underhanded tactics against a very popular progressive? That's burning the walls and furniture in the fireplace. She's going to NEED his supporters in the GE if she wins the primary.

[artislife]

95. She has already lost a lot of them. nt

[Dretownblues]

15. Great post

I agree with you on both fronts. I don't understand why she runs her campaigns the way she does. She doesn't have a clear platform, and if she does I'm not sure when she talks about it. Take her interview with racheal maddow, it was 17 minutes long and she spent 15 talking about Bernie's positions and character. Voters want to know what you are for, not just what you are against. We have spent the last 7 years hearing the GOP obstruct POTUSon guns,ACA,immigration ect. while not offering a solution for any of those issues. I just think hearing the same thing for a democratic candidate just won't play anymore.

[zazen]

18. if HRC wins I think Jim Webb has a serious chance as a third party candidate

Oddly, the establishment would reverse that since they've been saying Americans would "never vote for a Socialist," but they've been consistently wrong for the past six months.

Fifty percent of Republicans would vote for Webb over Trump or Cruz--hell, 25% of them would vote for HRC over Cruz, but they really, really dislike HRC and would prefer a conservative Dem who's more like Bob Dole politically anyway, with a clear military history and "Southern" roots.

If HRC goes scorched earth and thereby wins the nomination, many indie voters and disaffected Dems won't support her either, seeing her as no more liberal than Jim Webb and lot less ethical, with her husband as baggage too.

Webb has a real opportunity here.

[Chasstev365]

21. Respectfully, I Gotta Disagree

Jim Webb is a "Conserva-Dem", just like Bill and Hillary. Why would a 3rd party candidate with views and a voting record similar to Hillary's be viable?

[zazen]

26. because 50% of Repubs are really conserva-dems; they hate Trump & hate HRC

They vote mostly on personality, and then on a general platform, and the majority of Republicans don't like Cruz or Trump. It's that in a crowded field of candidates, each of them have 10% of the overall voting electorate, maybe, which translates into 25% of the voting Repubs, each--or maybe more. If Kasich or Graham had been left standing and the rest had dropped out, they'd be getting the nomination. The Republicans may try to broker Trump/Cruz out of the nomination at the convention.

Fifty percent of Republicans, if stuck with Trump as their nominee, actually DO recognize full on fascism or at least ignorant blowhard hedonistic bullying when they see it. They are thus going to 1) not vote or 2) vote for a middle of the way Indie candidate, and Jim Webb has written a book about Scotch Irish poverty, has "killed a man" as a respected Vietnam marine, and is very pro-defense. They'd vote for him. The only thing they don't like is his support for (limited) reproductive rights. Otherwise, he represents them.

Were Bernie the nominee instead of Clinton many indies and 5-10% of Republicans might just vote for him because they're voting for personality, and he's like a secular Jewish prophet whom they trust (cause they're into grumpy elderly male authority figures, even though Bernie doesn't behave patriarchally) and they figure he won't get much done anyway. As I've written elsewhere, a lot of evangelicals and conservatives LOVE Jews these days. They'll vote for him on his honesty and because he had relatives who were killed in the Holocaust and because they assume he's very pro-Israel.

There are some Republicans who feel their party has gone nuts and more importantly, feel that the two-party system is broken. That's why a Republican-lite/conserva-dem like Jim Webb whom they personally respect a great deal has a serious chance to get the crossover vote, especially when the choice is Anyone-but-Trump and Anyone-but-Clinton.

HRC represents their interests too but they can't stand her or her husband.

Webb should run. He's probably waiting to see if Trump/Cruz implode soon. If not, he's going to be in.

[Old Codger]

46. If she wins

The primary I will take a long hard look at Webb as an alternative... He is much more likable than she and if they are similar he would be a better lesser of 2 evils than she is..

[Politicub]

44. really? he seems to have dropped off the radar

I could see Bernie running as an independent if he doesn't get the nom. I'm a politics junkie and I haven't seen anything about Webb since he dropped out.

[zazen]

59. yep, he's floating it n/t

[NCTraveler]

19. I really don't take issue with much of anything she has done.

I was shocked to see the manner in which Chelsea choose her words. I think the purpose was part of a bigger picture. An attempt to turn force the discussion on to how we move forward on healthcare. It didn't start off right because of the verbiage employed by Chelsea. I don't take issue with the tone or attempt.

These things aren't as big as they are made out to be on DU. And at some point people will figure out it doesn't matter when it comes to how we are reported on. The corporate media hates the left.

[sulphurdunn]

24. I'm not sure Hillary

wouldn't start WWIII if it took that for her to be president.

[aintitfunny]

25. I have thought the same

I believed that HRC would be the resultant nominee, more because the Democratic Party establishment, who seems to never have a clue, crawled into her pocket for a long campaign's rest. Too many people thought it was her turn, her due, as though her loss in 2008 was a fluke or (gasp) unfair.

I was a Democrat in utero. Until Bernie came along I was in line to jump on the Hillary wagon though I was a bit languid in my Clinton flag waving. I will vote for her in the general if Bernie doesn't pull off an upset, that was the plan, at least.

I just unjoined "I am Liberal', a Facebook private group. Why? After the recent polling showing Bernie ahead or neck and neck with HRC, her trolls were on the attack. Ageism, in the pocket of the NRA, Marxism. I didn't have the energy to respond calmly, though I was the wimp, not the other Bernistas. They fought the good fight. After which I'm sure they were called ugly, mean spirited fanatics. Heavy sigh goes here.

Hillary's current tactics are a mistake, a big one. If she wins the primary, it will make her lose the GE. If I, someone who never voted for anyone but a Democrat, would even remotely contemplate sitting our the GE, as a result of lies and innuendo, she is up shit's creek. The DNC actions over the VAN data made me angry. Going negative with lies will really tick me off. I always vote. I would probably get over it. But...

[mountain grammy]

33. Excellent post!

[andrewv1]

29. Hillary; "All or Nothing" =Nothing

Clinton has destroyed her chances to become President from her actions in the last several days,
or she has some new alarming info on Trump & hired Katherine Harris to do voter rigging.

Whatever, it's not going to play out good if she's the nominee.

I would guess the Democratic Elite knows this & is talking with Biden or others about running with possibly having Warren running as a VP Candidate to satisfy the base.

Right now, she's a cancer on the party & the Hillbots (at least here on DU) show Republican tendencies to want to go off the cliff with her.

[Nonhlanhla]

35. You raise some valid points

On the other hand, there's been plenty of negativity from the Bernie camp. Bernie is smart - he stays above it, but he lets his campaign people and sometimes his rabid supporters run wild. That's what first turned me off from Bernie: the fact that the morning after his campaign got their fingers into Hillary's campaign data, they had turned the table onto how it's really all Hillary's fault because "Hilary=DNC=datafolks=honeytrap." And many supporters just ate that up that nonsense because they are already inclined to think of Hillary as the Wicked Witch of the West. The fact that Bernie did NOTHING to address that nonsense for over a day told me that he was OK with it. The tactic was positively Rovian. And it was in line with a campaign (Bernie's) that had successfully painted a fairly progressive Democrat, a Democrat who had been publicly persecuted by the Republicans for decades, as Republican Lite. The problem is that Bernie supporters eat that up as simple, self-evident truth, instead of the campaign tactic that it is.

Yesterday we saw an even more ridiculous example of the same thing. Hillary makes a grandmotherly remark (admittedly awkwardly stated) about how extraordinary her grandchild is, and Bernie supporters (I know, not all) are all over the web (or at least here and on DKos) with diary after diary about how Hillary was really referring to Bernie's grandchildren (the fact that she never mentioned him non-withstanding) and dissing adopted kids in the process. It's as if some Bernie folks will stop at absolutely nothing to paint Hillary in the worst light possible.

The response to Hillary's criticisms of Bernie's healthcare proposals reeks of the same kind of underhanded negativity. She had scarcely opened her mouth, when Bernie people all over the media started accusing her of LYING (the consistency of the language struck me as very interesting - no analysis of the critique, just the word LYING all over the place). Granted, she did not present her concerns with his proposals very well. I'll give you that. But the fact is that Bernie did say in the past that states should run healthcare, and we all know that is risky (if idealistic). He has proposed replacing ACA with Single Payer. He has not yet given any details of his budget for this. I don't think that Hillary is against the IDEA of single payer so much as against the idea that all the work of the last few decades should simply be shoved aside in order to chase the windmill of single payer. Unlike Bernie, she's been in the healthcare trenches. The reality is that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that Bernie will be able to (1) get single payer through Congress, (2) get states to cooperate (if that's still his plan - we don't know because he has not provided more specifics), (3) dismantle the 6th largest industry in the United States. Getting affordable healthcare for all people in the country is far more likely to succeed through gradual means than through an effort to dramatically overturn the very fabric of society. At least that is my perspective. This is a debate worth having, but at the moment the debate is distorted by BOTH camps. Not just by Hillary, but ALSO by Bernie folks. Hillary distorts her valid criticisms by using fear tactics (I'l admit that is a problematic move on her part), but the Bernie folks ALSO distort, by simply suggesting that Hillary has sold out. What nonsense.

Many of us who prefer Hillary are not blind to her faults. And we are not anti-progressives who have sold out or who do not share the Democratic dream of healthcare for all, greater income equality, addressing inequality in education, etc. We are for those things. We are just people who do not buy the idea that Bernie is a saint, and do not think that he will be as effective as Hillary in getting things done. We are not the enemy, and Hillary is not the enemy. And as much as you dislike the way that Hillary has chosen to go negative on Bernie (I don't like it either), we are also tired of the negativity from the Bernie campaign.

[cali]

39. And yet you are unable to give one example of

any member of his team engaging in negative campaigning. Supporters on the internet are not part of his campaign team.

And you are certainly no better than those accusing Hillary in the grandmother comments kerfuffle. Your revisionism is appalling.

[emulatorloo]

66. Bernie had to rein in Weaver and Devine over 'she'd make a good VP" snark

Sanders calls his campaign manager’s Clinton VP comments ‘inappropriate’
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2015/10/29/sanders-calls-his-campaign-managers-clinton-vp-comments-inappropriate/

Personally I found Weaver's rhetoric OTT regarding the data breach. Saw one interview on MSNBC where hyperbole got the best of him and he claimed DWS threw Clinton's data on his (fired) staff's desks. Yes it was an analogy, but Chris Hayes shot him down immediately and he backed off of it.

Meanwhile Bernie took responsibility and fired the guys.

In general I don't think Weaver and Devine are letting Bernie be Bernie. They want Bernie to attack, that is just not who he is.

That being, saw Weaver interviewed recently and he's toned it down quite a bit. He's obviously doing a great job for Bernie.

I don't know where Devine is, probably locked in the basement somewhere reviewing his work on the Gore and Kerry campaigns.

[Bluenorthwest]

88. Obama campaign official Samantha Power called Hillary a monster who will do anything to get

elected. She was fired but where is she now? US Ambassador to the UN. Some kida fired.
While I agree that the VP comment was nasty I'd much rather get that aimed at me than 'monster who will say anything'.

Harsh verbiage from operatives in politics is a constant. Is it not?

[emulatorloo]

90. Yes. Harsh verbiage from operatives is indeed a constant.

That's what they get paid for.

[Indepatriot]

51. A few things....

1. For any HRC supporter to accuse Sanders team as being "positively Rovian" is nothing but pure projection.
2. No one has to "go out of their way to paint HRC in the worst possible light". She's been doing that all by herself.
3. I do not know a Sanders supporter who things "Bernie is a saint". Not one. Most of us, do, however, believe that Hillary has shown herself to be a lying, triangulating, power-hungry tool of wall street who in not trustworthy. It's not personal, she is a product of the rightward slide of the Democratic party that started after Mondale's crushing defeat. HRC supporters need to realize that Sanders supports are rejecting much, much, more than Hillary, we are rejecting the leadership of a party that no longer represents the middle and working classes of this country. Mrs.Clinton was last year's candidate in 08' and is now last decade's candidate.

[Nonhlanhla]

69. I provided examples

To steal data from a rival and then manage to place the blame on her? Yes, that is Rovian.

And it is very clear from many, many posts here that there are plenty of Bernie supporters who basically think that he walks on water. Even when people ask how we would plan to enact single payer, the answer basically amounts to "trust Bernie." Moreover, everything that Bernie does is right in their eyes, and Hillary gets attacked relentlessly, endlessly, vehemently. So yes, it is clear to me that many Bernie supporters think of him as a saint. And of Hillary as the devil.

[artislife]

96. What did he steal?

Data, if they are already h supporters, how can that help him?

[Cary]

38. You? Annoy?

Ha!

[cali]

40. Anything cogent to offer? That's largely, but not entirely, rhetorical.

[Cary]

48. It's largely changing the subject as a defensive ploy

I didn't ask for your approval. But don't fret. There are plenty of people who appreciate my piquant aphorisms.

[daleanime]

52. Doesn't that make it....

crowded in there?

[Cary]

56. The atmosphere here does not meet my standards for common decency

Ignoring your passive aggressive insult, insinuating mental illness, I am not alone in my opinion. A lot of us aren't engaging.

That's our perogative. If you wish to have bad manners that's yours.

[Bluenorthwest]

91. Your first comment in this thread was a snotty little swipe at the OP lacking in any topicality

or content other than the aforementioned snottiness.

[Cary]

94. Nice "I know you are but what am I."

Another part of the reason why a lot of us don't want to engage

[raindaddy]

41. If we've gotten to the point where Hillary Clinton is what the house is offering ......

Last edited Sat Jan 16, 2016, 11:51 AM - Edit history (1)

and the house always wins.. Then it's time to Bern down the house!

Besides if Hillary's was the inevitable candidate that you claim she is, why is she reacting like some frantic Walmart black friday shopper clawing her way through the mob for the last half price flat screen TV set? If this is the case then I would question her sanity not her ethics...

While I appreciate what you're saying.... If this is just going to be another marginalizing the left election.. The left has nowhere to go so they have to vote 3rd way "Democrat", count me out. And there are a lot of people who feel the same way. The public is too angry and frustrated to be continued to be played, especially since the game has become so transparent..

With all due respect, I'm not being played this time around. Offer me a candidate that represents the values of the FDR Democratic party of my father or count me out! Hopefully the movement Sander's is in the process of creating will exceed your expectations! If nothing else it should be a wake up call to the party establishment, this party needs to figure out are they going to continue to carry water for the global corporations, military contractors and Wall Street banks or the people who elect them?

The number of registered Democrats goes down every year along with the number of people that actually participate in the process. Currently the Dems seem to be hovering around 32%. Those numbers will increase because of the Independents who will register as Democrats so they can vote for Sanders in the primary. Anyone want to take a guess what happens to those numbers if Hillary Clinton wins? They'll slide down into the 20's next to the Republicans and we'll have a republic with two parties that represent the plutocracy. History tell us that governments that ignore their citizens eventually fail...

[Ed Suspicious]

50. Yes! It doesn't have to be Bernie, although Bernie is fantastic and will do just fine. Just offer

me a real candidate who is genuinely pro-labor, who is genuinely pro-social safety net, who is genuinely suspicious of big finance, banking, and corporations, and most importantly, who will fight to get the influence of big money out of elections and limit the influence of big money lobbying on governing, and I'll be there with bells on. Offer me a trojan-horse republicrat/demican and I'm out, simple as that. If the party isn't for me, then I can't be for the party. If the party is for me, I'll go to the fricking mat for it.

[raindaddy]

58. My apologies Ed, I was in the process of editing my post when you replied..

I agree with you.. I think it's easy to miss the point with the assumption that we'll all have to find a way to cram ourselves into two buses, one speeding off a cliff and the other moving a bit more cautiously. What the Dem establishment has to realize is that over the years people have noticed that the Democratic Party bus has as many corporate logos plastered all over it as the Republican bus..

Bottom line if Bernie's driving the bus I'll get in, if Hillary's driving I'll ride my bike...

[Jackilope]

43. Great post.

Going nuclear on Bernie is going nuclear on all the youth being engaged and all contributing their modest amounts to Bernie's campaign.

Anyone that clueless of the damage and ill will created in their pursuit of the office doesn't deserve the office. Bad judgement in a campaign is a red flag a waving for more to come.

[MineralMan]

45. I'll send Hillary a link to your advice.

Somehow, though, I think she's better able to judge her own campaign than either of us. We'll see what she does in tomorrow's debate, though. She's handled the debates pretty well so far, and I doubt she'll screw up this one.

[cali]

77. Lately, it sure doesn't look that way.

[Nyan]

47. I don't disagree with you in that

Obama wasn't much of an outsider as they were making him out to be, but I wouldn't necessarily make a correlation that he won BECAUSE he had backing from the establishment. Those two things were quite separate to my mind.
In the end, Obama won because he had enough voters.
And that goes the same for this time around, I think; I don't see people ditching Bernie because he doesn't have enough endorsements from the establishment.

[ejbr]

53. Is it possible for her

to neuter the Wall Street "attacks" without going negative? As a Bernie supporter, I was (somewhat) impressed with her answer on Rachel: that Obama took contributions, but still worked to curb their excesses. Just as the OP alludes, honest statements about reality as she sees it would go a long way. I loathe to give her any good advice, but the Repigs are both corrupt AND mental; still trying to see how corrupt she may be. She is not mental, thank goodness.

[emulatorloo]

68. Sunday's debate should be very interesting, I think.

I look forward to hearing how Bernie and HRC move ahead. Lots of people at DU predicted Bernie and HRC were going to go 'nuclear' on each other the last debate. aNd that did not happen.

[SoapBox]

54. It's her 2016 version of a "3AM Phonecall".

She is using this a a BOO! tactic against him, trying to scare people that they will lose their healthcare...or some such bullshit.

She's mean and nasty...but I do not believe it will work. Let's see her try this crap in the next debate...Bernie will eat her lunch on it.

[Ino]

60. An in-depth analysis of her 2008 campaign...

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/09/the-front-runner-s-fall/306944/

...Clinton exploded, demanding to know why the campaign wasn’t on the attack. Solis Doyle was put on a plane to Iowa the next day to oversee the closing weeks. Within hours of the call, the panicked staff produced a blistering attack on Obama for what it characterized as evidence of his overweening lust for power: he had written a kindergarten essay titled “I Want to Become President.” The campaign was mocked for weeks.
(snip)
Penn created his infamous “3 a.m.” ad, questioning Obama’s readiness for a crisis, with these voters in mind. Before presenting the ad to the senior staff, he secured Hillary Clinton’s approval to broadcast it. But even Clinton’s newfound willingness to attack did not prevent Penn from being challenged. His detractors had two rationales: that attacks would look desperate and drive up Clinton’s already lofty “unfavorable” ratings; and that if she continued down this path she would irreparably damage her reputation and possibly that of her party’s nominee.

...it was Bill Clinton—not Hillary—who issued the decisive order: “Let’s go with it.”

On March 4, Clinton carried the primaries in Ohio and Texas, and vowed to remain on the offensive.

[Fawke Em]

65. Why do Dems want someone who has no common sense?

To wit: "The Clinton campaign is going to redefine him by negative campaigning and attack ads."

A. Bernie's favorability is famously in the stratosphere. He is beloved by most Democrats and Independents and even a few Republicans.
B. He's seen as a grandfatherly type to the Millennials, who adore him.

So what is she planning to do?

Pick on a grandfather who many adore.

The blow-back in doing that is going to send her sprawling into the middle of next week and landing into a pile of crap she won't be able to wash off.

SMH

[sonofspy777]

67. Favorably contrast? Not so much

every comparative point makes her look bad!

[Gmak]

72. Kind of the history of the Clintons.

Bill has the political instincts and charisma, Hillary has the larger ambition and ruthlessness. Together they made a formidable pair. I believe, and this is based on my experience in Iowa this fall, that she has a small base of feminists and die-hard Dem establishment types, but the average D voter is very hesitant about her integrity and trustworthiness and a lot are leaning her way only because they are afraid Bernie can't win in Nov. But, with him surging in the polls, they are switching to their FIRST choice, Bernie. Especially since he is beating Trump, Cruz and the others so handily right now.

She will not be able to get them back as long as it looks like he has a good shot in the general and Trump is really, really helping with that. In fact, I have been mulling over a theory of Trump's candidacy. Again, this is my personal experience with friends and folks I met campaigning. Rs and Ds alike despise Trump. But what if the Clintons encouraged him to run, knowing that a lot of Rs wouldn't vote for him, so would stay home, thus off-setting the majority of Rs who hate Hillary and Bill with a passion that knows no bounds, so would be anxious to vote for anyone to keep her out of the White House.

[Babel_17]

74. I think a lot of primary voters are less than solidly in anyone's camp (nt)

[Vinca]

78. She's alienating the people she will require if she is the nominee.

There is an assumption by many that if Trump is the nominee this will be a cake walk. I disagree. It's the scariest election in my lifetime and that includes the Reagan election.

[Paper Roses]

80. I am tired of Hillary and sick of hearing the 'same old-same old'.

I will voter for Bernie. Why? Because I think that anything other than the same old baloney would be better than the baloney we are hearing now. I respect Hillary but I don't see any real reason to believe she will bring the much needed change we need now.

[vi5]

83. That's one of many issues I have with her.....

Even when she's got clear sailing and all odds are in her favor she takes a scorched earth approach to anything that stands in her way. It led me to believe in 2008 and it even more so leads me to believe now that she's using the same tactics again, that it's all about her and her quest for what she wants. I realize all politicians are self centered narcissists but Hillary takes it to a whole other level when it comes to being challenged.

[Douglas Carpenter]

85. she is making opposition to single-payer healthcare the establishment Democratic Party position

How can she do that? It was always suggested in the past that, of course they would prefer single-payer - but since that cannot pass we have to work on it incrementally beginning with a pro-insurance company approach. Now that the gloves are off - many Hillary supporters are learning for the first the first time that it is not simply a matter of not being able to get it passed or a desire to work on it incrementally - They simply oppose genuine universal healthcare as a fundamental principle.

[cali]

92. That's what troubles me most.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

103. her campaign so insular

she can not hear - or - she really does not care

hope hope hope the first is true

[Betty Karlson]

105. It's all about Hillary. Party interests and long term visions be damned. eom

[Skwmom]

106. The Democratic Establishment knows she's toast. But they'd like her to take down Bernie and open

it up for Biden to come in.