2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumSanders lost on two big points and I think it cost him the debate.
Point 1: He hit Hillary for distorting his health care position. She defended herself and counter-attacked that we couldn't pass the public option, and we cannot start over with single payer. She basically said it was too hard and I think she effectively made her point.
Point 2: There was an argument about Wall St, Great Recession, etc. Hillary hit Bernie on voting to deregulate part of the financial sector. Bernie looked bemused and didn't defend himself at all.
Bonus point: Sanders was asked why Single Payer didn't happen in VT after the ACA passed. Sanders said they should ask the Vermont governor. That was a bad answer.
hill2016
(1,772 posts)Did not say "not my problem, ask the Governor of Michigan".
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)RIDICULOUS! She is soooo full of herself which is half of her problem aside from her bloviating and prevarications fusilade style!
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)Sanders: Snyder should resign over Flint water crisis
Democratic presidential candidate and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders has called for Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder to resign over Flints lead-contaminated water supply, calling it one of the worst public health crises in the modern history of this country.
In an exclusive interview Saturday with The Detroit News, Sanders said Snyders multiple apologies for his administration allowing Flint water to go untreated for preventing corrosion of lead-soldered pipes is just not good enough.
And I think the governor has got to take the responsibility and say, You know what, my administration was absolutely negligent and a result of that negligence, many children may suffer for the rest of their lives and the right thing to do is to resign, Sanders said in a telephone interview from Vermont.
snip
Appearing on the CBS Sunday talk show Face The Nation, Clinton said Snyder should have sought federal emergency assistance weeks ago." But the former secretary of state did not go as far as Sanders did in calling for Snyder to leave office just one year into his second term.
I dont want to get caught up in the political back-and-forth here, I want to help the people of Flint, Clinton said. And I particularly want a comprehensive health analysis of whats happened to these children.
snip
Sanders said the state-appointed emergency manager money-saving use of Flint River water was shortsighted given the long-term damage caused to Flints water pipeline and residents health.
It just tells me that we have a lot of these anti-government folks running administrations all over this country who could care less about the well being of our children, whether its in education, whether its in health, whether its environmentally, Sanders said. Its just unacceptable.
You dont save money while poisoning our children, that is is not acceptable.
Sanders noted Flint is a majority African American city whose residents dont have a whole lot of money.
Its an outrage and its unacceptable and I think the governor has got to accept this responsibility and do the right thing, and that is to resign, Sanders told The News.
snip
The independent Vermont senator, who is a democratic-socialist but votes with Democrats in the U.S. Senate, said he wasnt weighing in on Flints crisis just because Clinton has been all week. Clinton dispatched two top campaign aides to Flint on Wednesday to meet with Mayor Karen Weaver.
Its not Sen. Clinton ... its not a question of compelled, its a question of understanding that when you have a crisis of this proportion, its absolutely imperative that the governor accept his responsibility, show the people of Flint and Michigan that he does appreciate the calamity that he caused and has the courage to the right thing, which is step down, Sanders said.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Hillary got results, period.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Any port in a storm, I guess.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Basically he didn't have an answer for why he'd voted for all that NRA-friendly legislation. Except his D-minus which is getting a little long in the tooth LOL. . .
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Apparently he changed his position on it just before the debate. He had a little trouble explaining why though.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Dretownblues
(253 posts)It's too hard will not play well with people who are under insured or uninsured.
artislife
(9,497 posts)CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)I shudder at the thought of listening and seeing her for 4 years or more... However unlikely!
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)Skwmom
(12,685 posts)The act was stealthily tucked into a bloated 11,000 page conference report when no one was looking, and passed by a lopsided 377-4 margin during a lame-duck session with a veto-proof majority -- not that it needed one. President Clinton (you know part of the two for the price of one couple), who had been lobbying behind the scenes in support of the act while publicly harrumphing about the evils of deregulation, signed it into law without batting an eye.
Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)In addition, Senator Phil Gramm (R-TX) is the person most responsible for the Commidities Future Modernization Act being so bad.
Jack-o-Lantern
(966 posts)Compare them to the shit slinging monkeys of the repub debates.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)snoringvoter
(178 posts)Bad move by your favored candidate. It'll be dug up when it should have stayed buried. Trust me on this.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)snoringvoter
(178 posts)It is correct that Shumlin decided to dump single payer, not giving it an effort.
I believe Cali has covered this many times.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)But I do agree that Bernie should have said something about that vote, and the actual context.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)"We couldn't get the public option in 2009 (we didn't actually try, but who cares about facts?) and so there is no point in ever trying."
Why? We do NOT have the best possible health care system, and a lot of people know that. I do honestly think that the ACA was just the first step to some sort of universal health care/single payer, and saying we can't ever go that route is at best disingenuous. At worst, it shows a callous disregard for an awful lot of people.
retrowire
(10,345 posts)leftofcool
(19,460 posts)kath
(10,565 posts)Lovely. Just lovely.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)have the same kind of insurance. Unless you're perfectly okay with millions who don't have any at all, and those who have crappy, expensive insurance.
retrowire
(10,345 posts)Point 1. Hillary didn't do herself any good by lying and trying to continue the idea that he's getting rid of ACA and that we'd be "starting over" and "undoing all this work on the ACA" So... how does Bernie lose? Oh yeah, if the American people fall for blatant lies, sure, but that's politics right?
Point 2. Bernie wasn't even allowed to retort several times during the debate. And this is no loss on Bernie's end because it's already public knowledge that Bernie has the superior plan for wall st, Hillary is a fox guarding the hen house. Besides, bringing up some vague thing he did from years ago isn't really all that earth shattering compared to the facts that keep coming out against Hillary regarding wall st.
Bonus point: Bernie gave an excellent answer. Single Payer didn't happen in VT because he had nothing to do with it, go ask the governor. Clear as day.
Gothmog
(145,107 posts)retrowire
(10,345 posts)Gothmog
(145,107 posts)Sanders home state tried and failed. It is not realistic to believe that Sanders would have any luck. The question was fair and Sanders' answer exposed the problems with his proposal
RandySF
(58,728 posts)That was how he came off.
Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)think otherwise.
Who won tonights debate
Fox's conservative viewers
Bernie Sanders 91.31%
Hillary Clinton 6.73%
Martin O'Malley 1.96%
Heavy.com poll
Bernie Sanders 89.98%
Hillary Clinton 8.01%
Martin O'Malley 2.01%
Time.com
Bernie Sanders 88.00%
Hillary Clinton 9.00%
Martin O'Malley 3.00%
Slate's poll
Bernie Sanders 86.00%
Hillary Clinton 10.00%
Martin O'Malley 2.00%
politicususa.com
Bernie Sanders 1
Hillary Clinton 2
Martin O'Malley 3
Political People Blog
Bernie Sanders 93.84
Hillary Clinton 4.95
Martin O'Malley 1.21
RandySF
(58,728 posts)Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)and take a look.
RandySF
(58,728 posts)How many voted in multiple votes? One can only vote once on primary day.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)SheilaT
(23,156 posts)Now, shall we take bets as to how quickly they will be scrubbed?
Or has the MSM been acknowledging that Bernie won? No TV here, so I haven't been watching any post debate analysis.
Samantha
(9,314 posts)I have no opinion on Point 2.
Point 1 -- we already have passed the public option. In a very small, seldom-noticed paragraph buried in The Affordable Care Act, we gave states the option of starting a single payer system within their state if they so desired. That is exactly where the State of Vermont got its authority for trying to start one, and there were several others that looked into it as well. Specifically, I remember Montana really wanted to have a single payer plan.
Bonus Point: what exactly could Bernie say that would not be offensive to the Governor of Vermont for failing to get the job done. "Ask him" was the diplomatic and correct answer to this question. The Governor was in charge and could not get it done.
Sam
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)You know, just like the way a college student who quickly drops out of a difficult class "wins". Right?
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)But Bill Clinton rammed through the bill you're referring to. It takes a very special kind of liar to use this against Sanders when your husband rammed the thing through.
Renew Deal
(81,854 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)First, tell me how many congresspeople DIDN'T vote for this bill. I'll wait.
Second, tell me which executive rammed this bill through and signed it.
Answer those questions, and we'll continue, having a full background with which to work.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Renew Deal
(81,854 posts)Please proceed
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Answer the questions or run along.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Bernie can keep his grubby paws off of my insurance which I happen to like very much.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Never was, never will be. Is it any wonder elected Dems aren't supporting him? He never went out there and campaigned for them and helped them get elected. Bernie is only about Bernie and plenty of people see through that.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)retrowire
(10,345 posts)Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Bernie attended a Democratic fundraiser on Martha's Vineyard last July, and was criticized for it by the same people who are always trying to tear him down. He also campaigned for Democratic candidates Chui Garcia and Susan Sadlowski Garza in Chicago in last year's municipal election.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Renew Deal
(81,854 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Try to be a realist and accept the truth.
840high
(17,196 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Renew Deal
(81,854 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Renew Deal
(81,854 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)bowens43
(16,064 posts)so in your opinion giving up because its too hard is a good thing?!??! really?
Would vote for a candidate whose slogan seems to be 'it's too hard,so fuck it....'?