Michelle Alexander weighs in on POC, Hillary & Bernie.

[pinebox]

Here is some food for thought.
This is a fascinating conversation happening over on her facebook page and yes, IMHO she IS 100% correct. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=938033916284566&id=168304409924191

[peacebird]

1. Kick!

[m-lekktor]

2. That's what I said. nt

[CharlotteVale]

3. K&R

[Punkingal]

4. interesting comments...most seem to agree with her.

[SamKnause]

5. K&R

[farleftlib]

6. + 1,000,000

"...their boastful embrace of the mass incarceration machine and their total capitulation to the RW narrative on race, crime, welfare and taxes..".

This is the message that needs to be put on blast.

[monicaangela]

58. Absolutely farleftlib!!

Nina Turner, the former Minority Whip for the Ohio Senate has been talking about exactly this on the campaign trail. Ms. Turner was a Clinton supporter, but has recently become a supporter of Senator Bernie Sanders.

[Cal Carpenter]

7. She speaks the truth, and anyone who wants to disagree best read

her book The New Jim Crow first because she already totaled whatever argument you think you are gonna make.

[blackspade]

18. Thanks for the recommendation.

I'll have to pick that one up.

[Mbrow]

37. +1,000

read it

[MuseRider]

8. I rec'ed this because

I agree with what she is saying. However, I still think these issues are better left alone by those of us who are not AA. I feel sure that the AA community will vote what they believe is in their best interests whether I agree with it or not.

[blackspade]

21. "the AA community will vote what they believe is in their best interests...."

..."whether I agree with it or not. "

As they should and as we all should.
But you make a great point. This is an internal discussion that needs to be conducted within the AA community without the rest of us chirping from the sidelines.
Expressions of interest and support are one thing, lecturing and hectoring are another. We need more of the former and less of the latter.

[1StrongBlackMan]

35. That is, and was, what many in the AA Group has been saying; but, no one here seems ...

to want to hear. Maybe, some will listen now that it isn't Black folks saying it.

[blackspade]

40. You're right, the AA community has been saying it for decades.

I claim no credit, just being supportive.
It takes a while to penetrate white privilege for many white folks.
But the more the chorus grows the less it can be ignored.

[1StrongBlackMan]

44. And to extend it ...

what we have been saying ... It's the difference between being a supportive ally ... and being a self-interested opportunist.

[Plucketeer]

41. I'm not AA

but that doesn't deny me allowance to help carry the banner for what's right. I hope the AA community DOES express their opinions come voting time. They're certainly able to discern (truth at hand) what is and what isn't in their best interests.

[blackspade]

43. That's what I was saying!

[1StrongBlackMan]

46. But ...

that doesn't deny me allowance to help carry the banner for what's right.

Question ... are you "carry(ing) the banner for what's right" for you ... or, those for whom you are carrying the banner?

Simple question ... that requires honest self-reflection.

[Plucketeer]

48. Simple answer

Not thinking of myself.

[1StrongBlackMan]

50. Okay ... But.doesn't that presume you know what is best for someone else? ...

Trust, I am only trying to provoke thought.

[Plucketeer]

51. I can only say what's in my head (and heart)

How much more must I elaborate to impart that my motive(s) are selfless? That is to say non-presumptuous.

Do I have opinions about different topics? Of course I do. But I'm willing to listen to folks and change my opinions accordingly.

[1StrongBlackMan]

52. Okay. eom.

[cui bono]

53. I have no problem with a man speaking up for women's rights.

.

[1StrongBlackMan]

66. Even when that man insists on speaking up ...

In a manner that is contrary to the main stream of women's thought on women rights?

[cui bono]

68. Well are they then speaking 'for' our rights?

All movements for equality would be no where without the help and aid of those who are not of the group. I welcome allies and their opinions. I understand there is a need to also have discussions alone though, for support, but I do not ask those not of my group to not speak at all.

Also, if you are speaking to what goes on on DU, well that is a whole other issue that involves one candidate being singled out and attempted to be smeared as a racist. Yes, racist. His supporters were also called white supremacists. That needs to be challenged, but then that wasn't a discussion of racial issues among PoC, that was an attempt at swiftboating Sanders by Hillary supporters.

.

[blackspade]

71. I think that the use of the word 'white supremacist' in the context it was used....

was initially misunderstood by Sanders supporters, myself included.
My first reaction was the same as yours, I thought that they were calling Sanders and his supporters racists.
But after reading what the BLM activists were saying, I understood that they were talking about the white supremacy that is inherent in out cultural paradigm.
I realized that BLM was confronting the ideology of white privilege and my initial personal reaction was based on ideological indignation.
That realization made me rethink how I should approach the interracial conversation.
Now, there were many Clinton supporters who latched onto the confrontations and instead of realizing that BLM were talking about them as well, used them as a beat stick to go after Sanders and his supporters.
I decided early on that I wasn't going to devour that shit sandwich and instead listen and try to understand as Sanders obviously has attempted to do.
My .02

[cui bono]

75. Here on DU it was used against Sanders supporters literally.

I can see BLM activists and have heard AA using it as you describe and they are right. But here on DU the whole racial situation has been used and abused in order to smear one candidate. We didn't see anything against Hillary when she had problems dealing with BLM. All the vocal complainers had nothing to say about that, but they just would STFU about Bernie's so called issue with PoC. And it started long before the whole BLM kerfuffle. As soon as he announced there were many 'concerned' posts about his "lily white crowds" and his "for white males only" policy. So it's hard for me to take any of what happens on DU that seriously right now after witnessing the exploitation of a very serious issue for political gain.

.

[1StrongBlackMan]

77. This false claim has been litigated and re-litigited, time and again ...

yet, you and other Bernie fans, repeat the lie, so often, it has become your truth.

Post a link to anyone here on DU that has said Bernie is a racist.

[cui bono]

78. Yes it has and it was witnessed by many on here.

You can deny it but the implications were very clear. There were many posts and OPs insinuating it.

"lily white" crowds, policy for "white males only", "when do minorities get to play", "outliers", the vile, vile OP "Not Good Enough, Bernie" where the OP had a disgustingly racist pic that had nothing to do with Bernie in there in order to associate him with it.

Hillary supporters were attempting to swiftboat him by painting him as racist at worst, tone deaf at best. A Rovian tactic of attacking him on his strength. Some went so far as to pretend they were Bernie supporters and then showing their 'concern'.

You can rationalize and attempt to minimize all of that as much as you want but the message was loud and clear.

.

[1StrongBlackMan]

79. More of this "insinuation" business ...

That you (and some Bernie fans) allow yourself to believe that commenting on the clear lack of diversity of Bernie's crowds and not being impressed that Bernie marched with Dr. King, Jr., some 50-odd years ago is, somehow, tantamount to calling Bernie (and/or, his fans) racist, speaks volumes about your mindset.

[cui bono]

80. The fact that you can have seen what happened on DU and think it was innocent questioning

speaks volumes about yours. As you are aware, it's not just white Bernie supporters who saw it as I did. There is a PoC who doesn't post here any more because he was harassed and practically called a traitor to his race by another PoC for being a Bernie supporter and he said the same as I did about what went on here.

There is nothing wrong with having a discussion. There is a lot wrong with the accusations and smears that were present here on DU.

.

[1StrongBlackMan]

81. Like I've been saying ... Hold out an outlier PoC ...

as if that represents anything.

[rhett o rick]

57. So are you saying that Ms. Alexander doesn't know what she is talking about?

She is saying that the AA community should wake up to recognize the damage the culture fostered by the Clintons has done to the AA community. Are you saying she is wrong? That the mass incarcerations, the shooting AA in dead in the streets isn't happening? Of course the AA community will vote what they believe is in their best interest...." That goes without saying. She is saying the AA community should recognize the damage done in the last few decades by the culture that the Clintons embrace.

[blackspade]

65. No, I agree with her.

I'm just stating that I'm not going to lecture AA community members about the internal conversation that they are having.
Rather, I'll be supportive of that conversation.
Ms. Alexander seems to have it well in hand!

[Empowerer]

67. Thank you

It's interesting how people will dismiss and ignore black people when we say things they disagree with, but the minute one black person says something that aligns with their view, they parade them around, rub it in other black people's faces and insist that THIS person speaks THE TRUTH!

Mind you, my comment in no way undermines Ms. Alexander, whom I admire greatly. In fact, she has been saying and writing some very interesting, thoughtful and provocative things for years that many white folks have shown little interest in. I happen not to agree with her about this particular issue, but her perspective is valid and valuable. However, it is rather obnoxious of people who don't seem to have the least bit of interest in what other black folks say about anything to suddenly not only find great interest in what Ms. Alexander thinks, but feel no shame in lecturing black people - most of whom are already very familiar with Ms. Alexander's work - to pay attention and accept what she is saying.

Thank you for not doing that and for cautioning others to follow your lead. I appreciate it.

[blackspade]

72. You're very welcome.

I appreciate your kind commentary even though we disagree on the issue Ms. Alexander is opining about!

[creatives4innovation]

9. Well said

"...the millions of families that we destroyed the last time they were in the White House by their boastful embrace of the mass incarceration machine and their total capitulation to the RW narrative on race, crime, welfare and taxes..".

This is an important conversation we should be having. Many thanks Michelle.

[Duval]

10. It IS time! K&R

[bread_and_roses]

11. The Clintons' "right-wing narrative on race, crime, welfare and taxes"

Exactly so. I keep going back to the horrendous consequences of the Clinton "welfare reform" because I saw it first hand and know people still suffering under it.

And the endless destruction and pain caused by "tough on crime and drugs" and the "mass incarceration machine" -

K&R

[mountain grammy]

12. Oh my, that is so true, so true

So shockingly true!

[nyabingi]

13. Damn, thank you Dr. Alexander

I have literally said almost the same thing about the Clintons and the damage they have done to generations of Black Americans with their right-wing, Republican-lite policies.

Hillary's positions have been destructive not only for people of color in the US, but especially to people of color overseas (Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, etc) who have been the overwhelming victims of her hawkish, neocon foreign policy.

[840high]

38. ..+1

[monicaangela]

60. Many of us

in the AA community have been saying the same thing Dr. Alexander is saying. We of course aren't covered by the MSM for our opinion on the Clinton's, only when one of us is getting arrested, killed, or commenting on something that has nothing to do with anything that will improve our lives.

[SoapBox]

14. Truth.

[Luminous Animal]

15. Her book, "The New Jim Crow" is excellent. I highly recommend it. And thank you for the link...

there are some good conversations going on there.

[thereismore]

36. She is a professor at Ohio State. First Nina Turner, now Michelle Alexander. nt

[monicaangela]

61. That is correct,

Ohio is a pivotal State, believe me this message is doing a lot of good here. The Clinton's may have a big surprise coming if they are counting on the AA vote in this State.

[thereismore]

63. I went to The Ohio State University. Blessed! nt

[Cheese Sandwich]

16. huge. nt

[99th_Monkey]

17. K&R - the more people know Bernie, the more they like & support him. nt

[WillyT]

19. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[uponit7771]

20. Voting for the same Clinton damage and gun man immunity somehow is 100% better!? Again,

... Sanders is quickly becoming the "I'm SLIGHTLY different" from them candidate when one looks under the hood.

There's no argument made when the facts are laid out that I'm not going to get that much difference with Sanders when one looks at the character on an even level.

Sanders camp hasn't convinced anyone HRC is teH Satan, on that issue they're talking inside the bubble and not to anyone else

[blackspade]

23. "I'm SLIGHTLY different"

Really? Besides the gun issues what are you talking about?

And Clinton is not Satan, and never will be.
She and her husband have many questionable policies that should be discussed openly.
You will just have to get over the fact that Clinton is just not the preferred candidate for increasingly large portions of the Democratic electorate.

[libdem4life]

29. Guns...D- NRA rating. I'd say they know more than his gun, um, disagreers.

[pinebox]

25. Uhhh

On every single major issue, Hillary has waffled. Name one she hasn't. Honestly, go for it. Bernie, you may find one or 2 and that's about it.

As far as the Sanders camp and convincing people Hillary is Satan, he doesn't have to. Is she? I wouldn't say THAT bad. Let's be honest though. It's not tough when you've shot yourself in the foot so many times, you have to borrow limbs.

[jonestonesusa]

73. LOL! Sen. Clinton really is a leader for all seasons.

Quite a collection of issue positions! Pro-gun and pro-church!! And of course, anti-Obama. My how things change from election to election!

[pinebox]

74. Isn't that the truth

[Enthusiast]

22. Kicked and recommended to the Max for accuracy!

[TIME TO PANIC]

24. K & R !

[SammyWinstonJack]

26. Oopsie.

[dembotoz]

27. i trust her viewpoint

[Uncle Joe]

28. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, pinebox.

[VulgarPoet]

30. Kick/rec.

She is not on our side, and never has been.

[ancianita]

31. Michelle Alexander is THE expert on "how much damage the Clintons have done."

She should opt out of a "conversation" and opt into making videos of the history of the Clintons' damage to black folks.

[yuiyoshida]

32. K&R

Tweeted

[ChiciB1]

33. Michelle Alexander IS A Person Who Knows A Thing Or Two...

Thanks so much for posting this!

[thereismore]

34. I wish I had the mental clarity of this woman. She writes like a goddess. nt

[NikolaC]

39. K&R

[mhatrw]

42. Finally somebody notices the emperors' attire!

Brilliant post!

[MellowDem]

45. Her book...

The New Jom Crown is really worth a read.

[Betty Karlson]

47. I couldn't agree more with Ms Alexander.

But I feel we can still correct some effects of these wrongs, in the months to come.

[Eleanors38]

49. "Mass incarceration machine" = WOD©

[Chakab]

54. Preach

[monicaangela]

55. Finally

someone is talking about something I have been wondering about since this primary began. Yes, the MSM is partly responsible, but also too, I look at the attitude of the African American congressmen and senators that are backing Hillary Clinton and have to wonder why. If anybody should know the damage Bill and Hillary have done to the AA community I feel it should be them. This for me proves our political system is broken. And, it appears many of the elected leaders we have in office are there to improve their own living standard, and could care less about their constituents.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

56. Hillary has not yet begun to self-destruct!

[senz]

62. Well, I don't see how anyone but the 1% could trust Hillary Clinton.

Everyone else will be much better off with a president who cares more for the American people than for money and power.

Looks like Michelle Alexander sees it the same way.

[amborin]

64. K&R

[DirkGently]

69. KNR. n/t

[zentrum]

70. It wasn't just the Prison Reform Act

Here's a quote from a Bill Moyers program in 2014 about a report on Clinton's Welform Reform Plan, called:

How Bill Clinton’s Welfare “Reform” Created a System Rife With Racial Biases

The report found: "Five years after the passage of the Welfare Reform Act, 63 percent of families in the least stringent programs were white and 11 percent were black, and in the most restrictive programs — that is, the ones with the toughest penalties and the most stringent requirements for eligibility – 63 percent were black and just 29 percent were white.

The stringency of the rules mattered tremendously for outcomes. The tougher the rules — the worse the outcomes were for people after they finish the program.

In fact, in the toughest programs, people actually ended up in worse shape after they get through them than they were before they got the benefits to begin with.

The study also found that people who go through the toughest programs learn lessons about government that lead them to retreat from participating in politics. They become less likely to make their voices heard, and less likely to participate in elections and community organizations.

I do not understand how and why AA support the Clintons after they've done so much harm.

http://billmoyers.com/2014/05/12/how-bill-clintons-welfare-reform-created-a-system-rife-with-racial-biases/

[SMC22307]

82. K&R